Artificial Intelligence Part 3 (My Robot Teacher)

Episode 78

In Part 3 of our AI miniseries, we explore the new reality of digital learning. Computers, video, and algorithmic teaching aids are here to stay, so how can we make sure that they are used to help everyone, not just further the education gap? What exciting possibilities await for individual thriving? What hidden dangers lurk beneath the surface of our shiny new tech? Can gamification help you finally finish writing that book you've been meaning to write? Let's find out! 

 

Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast

 

More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/

 

produced by Zack Jackson
music by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 

 

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors. 

 

Zack Jackson 00:05

You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are

 

Rachael Jackson 00:15

Rabbi Rachael Jackson, Rabbi at Agoudas, Israel congregation in Hendersonville, North Carolina. And if I had a robot do any chore, it would be cleaning up my child's bathroom.

 

Ian Binns 00:30

Ian Binns, associate professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. And if I had to have a robot replace any chore, probably cleaning the showers.

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 00:45

Kendra Holt-Moore, PhD student at Boston University. And if I could have a robot, do my chores, I would definitely have a kitchen robot to do mostly dishes. And like, if they could cook, that would also be great. Just like kitchen in general, cover everything.

 

Zack Jackson 01:08

Zack Jackson UCC pastor in Reading, Pennsylvania, and I would get a robotic lawnmower, which is a real thing that actually exists, like a Roomba for your yard. And knowing myself, I'd probably get bored with it, and then modify it and try to turn it into a battle bot.

 

Ian Binns 01:32

That's very cool.

 

01:34

So, uh,

 

Ian Binns 01:36

today, we're going to talk about AI and education. And then let that go where it goes. Because as I said, yesterday, we're all educators in some form or fashion. So I thought it'd be kind of interesting to see what some people's take is on AI and education. And while looking for things to share with you. on just a couple things to read, I realized that I was being very picky, and not wanting to select things that were written prior to the start of the pandemic. Because I feel like things would be very different. I think I may have found one or two that were, but I was very surprised by some of the things that we found about AI and education that were written in October of last year. So in the heart of the pandemic, and teachers teaching from home or from school with students not in the classroom. So kind of wanted to just briefly talk about technology, in education and AI and how my experiences especially as a science educator with technology, in AI and in education, that and then obviously, please jump in as usual. One of the things that I've noticed with throughout my career with technology education is why I actually pulled away from doing research on technology is because of how fast the technology changes and rolls out that the ability to determine its effectiveness in a classroom takes significantly longer than the newest tool. Right. So. So I purposely pulled away from the technology because it just got to be too much too quickly. And, and not as well versed in the use of something simple like your iPhone, or smartphone as as others. And now I find myself getting excited every time I see a new app thinking Oh, yeah, let me use that. But then wondering, will it actually work or not? And so when you actually look up to see what are other educators, saying, you'd still have those two camps, ones who embrace it immediately. And then the others who are very hesitant, and then you may even have some who say no, don't use it at all. And so a few things I shared that I wanted to bring up is something from was at the Brookings Institute shared something about why we need to rethink education, artificial intelligence age, but actually we pull up something different real quick, sorry, is from this past October, written by a contributor for Forbes magazine, and his he's called the AI guy. And when talking about AI in education, this is the one where I said you may need the bleeper back because he referred to classrooms as the pedagogical Dark Ages, which made me really excited. And then he says, of all the areas of life where Intel artificial intelligence will have an impact, the biggest might well being education. This is because learning is so important. And also because current provision often leaves a lot to be desired. This is not generally the fault of teachers, which definitely aren't a big cue. There's one belief they are the active ingredient in today's education system, but they are expensive and not scalable, that are the second you. So in most countries, they're undervalued and burdened by absurd paperwork. They're also human, which means they are They are variable. Think back to your own school days, how many of your teachers were positively inspirational, as many as 10%? How many were unacceptable, that probably leaves the large majority, somewhere between okay and mediocre. One of the tragedies of modern education is that constructive feedback for teachers is rarely given or sought, there was the third view. So this is clearly someone who believes that AI will save the world of education at least. And, sorry, I'm gonna keep going on my tangents because this one really pissed

 

Rachael Jackson 05:37

me got under your skin. Whatever.

 

Ian Binns 05:39

They did it, I read it, the kids were sitting there watching cartoons last night while reading this, and I was looking at and I just kept mouthing it. And saying, I did say, very loudly, you know what, I really wish I could call them up and say, you know, what, why don't you come try? do this work, jackass. And John's goes to what is jack asked me

 

06:03

a teachable moment. Anyway, he

 

Ian Binns 06:04

does have a few few good things to share, like the idea of this whole notion of flipped classrooms where students get a watch, like the this is more for college, I believe, but you know, watching the lecture ahead of time, and then doing more work inside the class, hands on type work, and those things are good. You know, I like that. He talks a lot about online learning, which again, this was written in and October, right. So he was a little bit of critique about online learning, and then talked about those who are who are positioned to do it best. Which were already those companies and organizations who have the infrastructure there for it. But I think, you know, instead of me continuously go on my soapbox here, one of the things I'm just curious about is, you know, and others even refer to remote learning as a major challenge is how is it we could see AI being a positive force for things like education.

 

Rachael Jackson 06:59

So I can jump in here with two perspectives. One, that and I appreciate you saying that we're all educators. Because sometimes I, I teach a lot, but sometimes I forget to see myself in that role, or with that, that titling. So I do a lot of teaching. So that's one lens that I'm using, but also I have a child in first grade, and in public school. And so that's another place where I'm seeing it, which are two completely different educational worlds, frankly, in this way, when you're talking AI, specifically as separate from technology, it sounds like, how are you? Right? Because technology might just be like, right now, we are all, excuse me, goodness. We are all on a computer using a microphone, and a particular website. None of these things I would classify as a AI specifically, but as technology because it's not an artificial intelligence. I mean, someone certainly had to create these things. But it's not it is not dynamic. It's really these tools that we're using are very passive. And for me that passivity lends it to be a technology piece, rather than rather than an AI piece. So I think that in education we need to use and can use technology, way better than we are now. Right, that that I believe, how AI can be done. I really see that in terms of I don't want to use the word testing, assessing, though, right? How is this for you? Right? Is this fun for you? and using that, using those skills that AI can provide to react and learn from the user input? To say, Okay, this is where I think we're at, and they can be done in any way. I'm not saying that this needs to be a standardized test. But in a, let's play a game, and where is this game going to go, we can look at what strategy you can provide, or that can then be used in these quiet times, especially from a public school standpoint, where, from my perspective, both when I was a child, you know, 30 some years ago, and now it I, I would never want that job. Frankly, it just looks too hard, especially in elementary school, but it seems like that the teachers have to teach to the middle or the bottom third,

 

Ian Binns 09:38

at times it can,

 

Rachael Jackson 09:40

especially at these lower grades where there's a big there can be a big emotional difference in the lower grades. And so, from an educational standpoint, great so everyone has the free time. That can be the okay let's use AI as an individual so that the teacher can then work with the individuals or teach the whole class the concepts and then The individual can run with it using AI plus technology is how is one of those ways that I see that being used in public school and really elementary sized, or elementary aged? Sorry, I'm not being very clear today. So that's, that's my gut reaction. And I think that the person that wrote that article probably hasn't spent a lot of time in the classroom, and doesn't have a whole lot of passion. And one of the things that I want, I wanted to add to this sort of in, not in commiseration, but in just as another statement, I was teaching on Wednesday, and I was teaching something and I teach teachers, right, there's, there's, I've got a lot of retirees in my congregation, and one of them happens to be a former physics, high school teacher. And I was talking about my son and his teacher, and this person said, at the upper grades, the idea is to teach curriculum. And at the lower grades, the idea is to teach the person and that it's really flip flopped, that the teacher in the first grade teacher really has to change and adapt depending on who's in front of them. Whereas the older, right, the older grades, right, high school and stuff, don't change their curriculum that much depending on who's in front of them. And they'd still have to have the compassion and the empathy and some of the social work and all of that stuff that goes along with being a teacher. But the curriculum itself is the focus as opposed to the child itself being the focus or themselves being the focus. So just want to acknowledge that there's when we talk about education, I don't think we can lump it all together. Even when we talk about public schools, we can't lump first graders and 12th graders together, we just we can't they they learn differently. And the focus is different. Right? That's, that's my nonsense rambling?

 

Ian Binns 12:03

Well, I think one thing too, that it's interesting, we're recording this during the pandemic, while still, you know, online learning is still going on in most places. Yeah. You know, schools are now transitioning more, or trying to transition in some places to, you know, four days Face Face one day synchronous or something along those lines. But, you know, there, it's been an interesting as an educator, and as a parent, to hear some of the concerns that my friends or parents have brought up over this past year of, you know, complaints and everything. And even though I know that at times, I sound negative around online learning, I think online learning has a place, if the people who are doing it are trained in how to do it, you know, there's a huge difference. And so I would hate for the past year, to influence any future major decisions around all my learning, because online learning is here, it's been here, like we do it at that higher ed level, and do it do it very well. And there are places for it. And there are great tools that can be used within the science classroom, for example, that make activities and investigations vastly different than they were even when I was coming up. And when I was teaching in high school classroom. So I would, I would absolutely hate it if people ever made the decision of, we can't do online learning, because look how bad it was, during that

 

Rachael Jackson 13:22

look at the crisis crisis and say we'd like come through with stellar colors. When none of us are trained. Therefore, we should make this decision. It's more

 

Ian Binns 13:32

of a let's see what it is we need to do to prepare the teaching force in the future teachers on how to do a better job of using this type of technology, which is very powerful, but then also how to teach our children. So one of the things I tried to do my my classes to help them better understand how to do coding, right. And so there's some great resources out there they can use to then teach children coding, but I can only touch it, like just the tip of it. Because I don't have the expertise to do a whole class on coding, for example. Right, but But anyway, you know, we're talking a lot about how this type of technology and AI can replace things. And so I'm just curious of other thought I just wanted

 

Zack Jackson 14:11

to mention, for

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 14:15

if I can go first because I just want to like kind of respond to something that Rachel said, I think that the point about the distinction between technology and AI is something I was thinking about too, as Ian was talking in the beginning, and and I think that for people who group those things together, like think of AI, or just when people think of AI they think of technology in general. I think the very real fears of this last year is that you know, as much as AI and technology in general can be like an extra step of engagement and stimulation for students to really just like love and immerse themselves in learning. It can also be an extra hindrance and like reason to detach yourself from learning. And I think we just haven't figured out how to actually use it in such a way that it is a tool rather than an obstacle. And I think this last year, and this is, you know, what we were talking about right now is that no one was really trained. And so and the expectation is not just about teachers, it's also about students. And, you know, you have to be trained, and you have to have, like, you have a responsibility as a student as well, when you come into a classroom, whether that's virtual, or in the classroom, and I think a lot of teachers, and I'm just speaking from, like, people I know, who have been in the virtual classroom this last year, who have told stories about how, you know, like, these are people who are great teachers, and, you know, know what they want to communicate to students. But we'll say that when they go into their zoom classroom, everyone has their camera off. And so it's like, you're just kind of speaking into the void. There's no participation. And, you know, I think this is, there's probably, like a lot of people who could be like nodding their head to that right now, because it's, it has just been really common of this last year, with zoom fatigue, and all of that. And so I think it's really easy. Like, even for me, I I, as Rachel was saying, I also like separate the technology from the AI. But even looking at this last year, I'm like, let's just go back to the old days, the traditional classroom, keep technology out.

 

Rachael Jackson 16:41

Go back to chalkboards.

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 16:44

Exactly. Because it's too, it's so easy to use it incorrectly. And it's hard to imagine, like what tools we need in place in our education of teachers and of students to like come together in a shared space, even if that shared spaces are virtual, and or a shared space in a classroom where you're relying on a lot of different, like technological platforms or AI tools. Like how how do you do that correctly? And how do you, you know, create a sustainable system of teaching people to do that correctly? So yeah, I'm actually just curious for like, more examples of like, how, since you opened with this, and like, how do you see in your own teaching, this like difference between technology and AI? And like, what are your favorite tools that you have either used yourself or like, seen other colleagues use? What do you what do you think looks just like really effective for future teaching? Hmm.

 

Ian Binns 18:18

I think on that one, Zack, you were gonna say something, do you mind? Give me a minute to really think? Sure.

 

Zack Jackson 18:25

Well, connected to that, actually, that this is where the AI piece can be a real help. Y'all have talked about the importance of individual learning, especially for children, in helping them to identify their strengths, their passions, their growing edges, and then to give them individualized attention, which is really hard to do in a classroom setting, and maybe even a little bit harder to do in a virtual classroom setting. Kids always get left behind in large classroom settings. But like, artificial intelligence driven, individual systems can help identify as kids are doing their own work. Where are those kids growing edges are and where their strengths are, where their passions are, let the kids explore a little bit, you know, play around in a sort of gamified space, where, you know, this kid Wow, they seem to be really drawn to like the science island on this tablet game. And so we know that this kid, maybe will start feeding them more information in this way, you know, more sciency information, or, you know, maybe we'll try to communicate language in a sciency way, you know, to try to utilize their strength in this way. This like, the sort of thing that a teacher if given like seven students would be able to individually identify and find their strengths and help each one live into their best self. But when given 50 students is it's impossible for one person to do. But a really well trained algorithm might be able to, which, you know, then you run into like, well, are we then going to just create a whole world of specialists who are only good at one thing? Because from an early age, they were just trained in one thing?

 

Rachael Jackson 20:22

Wait, I don't know if that would be such? I

 

Zack Jackson 20:23

don't know. Maybe we go back to that. Right. Like, you're a blacksmith, you're

 

Rachael Jackson 20:28

right, that we don't all have to be random. I think

 

Ian Binns 20:30

that would be a society. Yeah, that would be a societal shift. And, and to me, recognizing the value

 

Rachael Jackson 20:36

down with the Enlightenment,

 

Ian Binns 20:38

let's go back to the futile all fields have a contribution to society,

 

Zack Jackson 20:42

right? Like, if you go into your Facebook settings, into your ad settings, you can see what Facebook knows about you. And you can see how specific it knows you your interests, your life, the things you're more likely to engage with. And like and enjoy. Actually, I noticed recently, that Facebook, when it's getting close to my wife's birthday will start giving me ads for things that she would like, which is crazy. And really good. Because I bought a couple of things. And she loved were perfect. Yep. And like, if the algorithms can know you that well, can they then help you to live into your best academic potential, instead of this, like No Child Left Behind one size fits all, sort of standardized testing way of doing it, we now have the technology to allow for individualized educational curriculum.

 

21:44

And, and so

 

Rachael Jackson 21:46

I like guys just gonna, just going to respond a couple of, I think one of the things you were pointing out in that that Zack and Kendra, have both sort of touched on, but I want to say overtly is this idea of not replacing, but in conjunction with, right, the idea that we're not going to just straight up replace teachers, or straight up replace interactions with human to human, right? We're not, it is trying to figure out the best way of being symbiotic with each other the best version of hybrid, right? We've been tossing that around and say, Oh, you know, we've been, again, just from my own life, not not from an educational standpoint, but you know, I, when I teach Torah study, if I have a couple of people in the room and a couple of people online, how is that hybrid going to work? And everyone's like, Well, here are the negatives to it. I said, Okay. And here's where the positives are. Right? And how do we, how do we reframe it so that we're recognizing that this really is going to be a partnership, and we shouldn't go into it with a scarcity mentality or a fear mentality, as we're looking at all these options, I say that with the exception of, you know, the robot that I really want to clean my bathroom, and perhaps the AI that will come along there. And again, switching the language of technology and AI, the AI would know where to put the towel down for where the toothpaste ends up so that it doesn't then have to clean up the toothpaste, but just as to clean up the paper towel. Right? That that would be the AI in the bathroom, which would be amazing, right? So not just that, that sort of carwash. Shower that you're talking about really learning, here's where the mess is made, and let me prevent it. And working together to do that. And I think that if we reframe our idea of, of being in partnership, maybe we'd approach this with a kinder heart.

 

Ian Binns 23:52

Yeah, and that so you know, when we talk about, ya know, I keep using them interchangeably, AI and technology. But one of the things when I teach about how to use technology, so if we kind of more broad for a moment, that I've always emphasized to future teachers is that when using technology don't don't find a piece of technology, or, you know, be a a tool of some sort, you know, as well as an app, you know, something like that. So either, you know, hardware or software and build your lesson around that instead, no, here's, here's what I need to be teaching about to build a connect with my students. Are there things that can use that can help me do that better? Right, so then, and that's how I kind of see the use of things like apps, or that kind of techno AI to help with education is that can we use it as a way to only enhance instructional practices? I like the idea of individual individualized learning. I think that would be great because not everyone learns the same and I know that and that's one of the hardest parts of being a teacher I think is trying to figure out when you've got 20 to 30 people in your classroom, trying to make it individualized for all those people is pretty much impossible. So if this allows for that possibility, then yes, absolutely, let's do that, again, as long as we provide the appropriate training for them. A great, I was just looking up a few things about, you know, examples of AI and education, and one is something that I've benefited from, and that's Duolingo. You know, they the, so I started thinking about Duolingo. And then and not other language apps, I've used to help with my, to improve my German skills. And so it totally you know, how I respond determines what happens next. And it learns based on my ability. So I think things like that are very powerful in the classroom. And I but I remember to, what was it Rosetta Stone when that first came out? I actually was talking with this was several years after it came out with a language professor at UNC Charlotte, asking him, you know, I have the German understanding from growing up, but I need to relearn it. What would you recommend, instead of me taking the traditional courses, which I didn't have time for? And he actually recommended, we'll get Rosetta Stone, you know, we have subscriptions to get that that will really help you. He said, but then acknowledge there are some of the language community who would hate me for that. But that's something that can help because of the type of learning you need, versus going back and starting from scratch. Right. So I think it could truly revolutionize education in that way. As long as as you said, Rachel, we realize it's not replacing the role of the individual in that classroom, especially when they're younger, and you're dealing with younger children, you still need to develop that

 

Rachael Jackson 26:44

connection. Like, exactly, and I'm thinking other AI that that we've used his YouTube and our households. You know, I put a couple of settings on YouTube so that it would know that this is an underage person, please don't show him things that are inappropriate, right? So g and PG type things. And I just let him have it. Like whatever he wants to watch, he can watch. So he loves the squirrel. This thing came out. I don't know how many years ago came out. It resurfaced last year where they did a squirrel obstacle course and then explain the physics of squirrels. And why the jumping of the squirrel and then like the catapulting the squirrel off of something wasn't going to harm it. Fantastic, fantastic video, and he watched this, I don't know, like 10 times. And the next thing it shows are these Rube Goldberg kicks. Can't say that rube. rube. Thank you. We're gonna not say the word. Yes, she's Goldberg machines. And so now he's watching all of these things. Like he, I can't say it, he can't spell it. But YouTube is able to go Oh, you really like the squirrel obstacle course so much here that may show you other things. And now he wants to build one. So it was able to identify that not just watching this video, but to say, Ah, this is what you're interested in. Now we can do that at our in our backyard. I'm not a physics person. So it's going to be for an engineer. So it's going to be very challenging to do anything. But you know, that's what that's what YouTube is for, to help teach me my son's interest to it. So that that's now teaching me, right? I love this. this. I gotta throw something Jewish in here. This quote from from our, from our Talmud, which says, I think I've used this before. From my, from my teachers, I learned some from my colleagues, I learned more and for my students I learned the most like, and I think I think if we go into it with that, that flipped classroom idea, that that students actually have something to teach each other, and the person who, who is in charge. I think AI can then also really help us understand and grow our own learning.

 

Zack Jackson 29:18

So you should get your son watching the kids invent stuff. Okay, for those of you at home, it is kids, kids invent stuff. They, they get submissions from kids for potential inventions, and then they make them and so these are like ideas that kids came up with that then they make real so they're ridiculous things that some kid was like, you know what I need? I need like a doorbell that shoots popcorn. And they're like, let's do it. And it's funny.

 

Rachael Jackson 29:53

Yeah, the one my son wanted to submit. We just haven't done it yet is he likes toast But he's a little scared of the toaster oven. right because the toaster pops up, you don't have to get near the heat but then toaster oven, you got to put your hand in. So what he wanted is for the pancakes that we freeze for him to then have in the mornings for it to take it out of there or the waffles, take it out of the freezer, put it into the toaster oven, turn the toaster oven on and release it and then put it on a plate so that he could just have it.

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 30:27

My Kitchen robot can do that for you. That's

 

Zack Jackson 30:29

like,

 

30:30

that's right.

 

Rachael Jackson 30:35

Okay, I'm sorry to jump in one more time, I am going to have to exit our conversation a little bit earlier listeners. Let me know other questions. And we can talk on our Facebook group, not driven by AI driven by us. But sponsored with the technology. I just want to add this from the religious side of things. In addition to the education side of things, at the end of the day, a AI will allow the human connections and the human relationships to thrive more. And that for me is the ultimate goal of AI, both in religious and educational instances so that we can focus on doing doing the jobs that we love and being with the people. That that's more that's most important to us, and how we get there. So that's what I wanted to say. And unfortunately, I have to stay off. But I will listen and talk with you all next time. Yeah,

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 31:58

I feel very compelled by the gamification of learning. And like, I because I've recently discovered an app that has been really useful for me last couple of weeks, but I just think there is. So for me, personally, I have always had this like competitive side to my personality that I've never, I've never thought that the competitiveness of myself could be practical, in any way. I just, you know, like, grew up, loved playing games, played a lot of video games with my sisters and just, you know, always liked to win. But as an adult, I just thought like, this is just a side of my personality that's not very useful in, you know, just trying to like sit down and, you know, read articles, and like write papers all day. Maybe, sometimes, but not recently. And then I discovered this app called forest. Have y'all heard of this app. And you basically plant a tree. And I'm using air quotes here, in your virtual garden for your tomorrow and you set a timer, and you press plant, and the timer starts winding down, and your virtual tree starts to grow. So the trick is that you have to keep the app open, so that your tree grows. And if you exit the app, then your tree dies. So the point of the app is to help you stay focused on task and not get distracted and like use your phone to like, do anything. And it's just like the silliest thing that there's like a virtual pine tree growing in my little virtual patch of garden, but I am obsessed with it. I feel so upset whenever I've like killed trees or done group study sessions and someone else has killed the tree. And then it kills everyone's tree like this. It just has really harnessed the competitive side of my personality into something that is very, like practical and useful. And the people who develop these kinds of apps. I just think it's it's genius. Because this is just like a part of human brains that like they've figured out how to hack. And I just know that things like forest because I I'm sure there are a lot of things that I've yet to come across. But this harnessing of our like desire to win and competition that's so fun and stimulating that I think is like the best. The best case of like using AI in the classroom is to find things that can harness that side of human human beings. And like connect it to our learning experience, because then we're just like playing a game. And it's, you know, people like that.

 

Zack Jackson 35:08

I think if I think if I had a Tamagotchi in high school that would die when I stopped doing my homework. Like, I probably would have ended up going to Harvard.

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 35:20

Yeah, I mean, this is it.

 

Ian Binns 35:23

So does it work where like, you have to be active on that, like, if because you know, you can multiple apps open the same time, right? Like, is it just that that has to be

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 35:32

open and on your screen, like, if you go to like, your text message

 

35:37

was a different app,

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 35:38

it'll, I think it'll say like, your tree will die if you leave or something like that.

 

Ian Binns 35:45

Okay,

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 35:46

and you can do it with other people, you can like create a virtual room and press plant, when everyone has the app open on their phone. And if someone gets distracted and exits, then everyone gets a notification like, Joe exited the app and killed everyone's tree. So then you get a chance to shame your friends, for not helping you get a virtual tree in your garden when you've been working

 

Zack Jackson 36:12

gamification. And public shaming. This is like harnessing everything that is most powerful

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 36:21

is so genius,

 

Zack Jackson 36:22

play and shame.

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 36:26

Blame shame and competition.

 

Ian Binns 36:29

You talk about accountability. Yeah. How do you know and peer pressure for accountability. So that's interesting. Oh,

 

Zack Jackson 36:38

my goodness, see, I just as you were saying that installed the app on my phone, and I planted a tree. And then as I put my phone back down, I got a notification that I have an email. And I really want to check it, you can't, but I can't, because it'll die.

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 36:57

And when the tree dies, they plant the dead tree in your garden as a reminder that like you, the trees day,

 

37:05

so it's always

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 37:06

there as a reminder, haunting you and the rest of your life.

 

37:12

See,

 

Zack Jackson 37:14

see, this is something I love about, about like, the more we learned about human psychology, that we're able to utilize it for good. Like companies like Facebook, use it for financial find, like making money. But a company like this can can utilize that for our own betterment. It's

 

Ian Binns 37:37

awesome. So that's where technology and I think AI can be beneficial. Right? So is the way it can change things for the learner. You know, with teachers, I think if we can do a better job of preparing them to handle it, you need to know how to use these tools effectively in their classroom to make you know, and personalized learning a possibility for every student, I think that'd be great. I do wonder how once this pandemic, like once things are returning to some sense of normal, where schools are fully open around the country? What will be the conversation around this? You know, because as we've done, as I admittedly have done, you're kind of using AI and technology interchangeably. And so, you know, we think about both of those areas, technology and AI and its influence on other areas we've already talked about, especially with religion, church services, religious experiences for people, what will it be like for education going forward? You know, because people will have negative memories of this experience and kind of think that Oh, no, I don't want that. And also, one thing that made me think about to was as our Dr. Scott episode with Dr. Scott and paleontologist and He always talks about the importance of getting kids outside. Right. And so some of the things I've read is talked about personalized learning, online learning, and so them having that full virtual environment for them. But as long as if we, if it's used to the extreme, where it does not encourage going outside anymore, then that could become problematic. Yeah. Right. So I would want to see the tools developed to make sure that that still happens

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 39:27

totally. And that's why I think that they exist like in order for us to really harness the potential of AI, we have to take seriously and really understand the human psychology and just like the evolutionary like state of our humaneness because we we, we will fall into the traps of technology and AI if we don't understand, you know that we're like responsive to certain kinds of stimuli. That, you know, kids need to go outside because of the bodies that they live in. And this, like, has to be part of the conversation. And I, I think it is for a lot of people and a lot of companies like understand that. But I don't think that's, it doesn't seem to me that that's a very widespread conversation when you're talking about, like K through 12, or like college instructors who are just trying to like, figure out how to use zoom in a classroom and, and I think also like, this is also relevant for, you know, talking about like, spiritual or religious implications. I think maybe we had hinted at this at some point, or we're going to talk about this in the future, but like, different kinds of spiritual technologies that rely on AI, and I'm thinking of like, the, the, the meditation headset, camera, or what it's called, I've never, I haven't had the chance to calm one, I think that's it, like, gives you biofeedback so that when you're like, trying to meditate, you can, like, receive the biofeedback and I don't know, I guess like to realize what your body is doing to, like, inhibit you from getting into a deeper meditation state, and take that information about your body to help you do what you're trying to do, which is meditate. And for some people that, like is a very, like spiritual practice. And so it's not just something that's like good for education. It's good for, for people trying to develop habits and practices, whether they're spiritual or not, like we really could, like benefit so much, and just like trying to be human every day. But we have to take seriously the pitfalls.

 

Zack Jackson 42:20

You know, I've also heard of a couple of startups that are like putting together spiritual teachings and meditations and things like that. And then creating a sort of like a Pandora for spiritual teachings, where you put in your religious tradition, and you listen to things or you watch videos, and you either like it, or you don't like it, and it starts to create a sort of personal spiritual profile for you, and then starts feeding you daily. sermons, meditations, whatevers, that more closely match your particular spirituality, because there's so many people who are spiritual but not religious now. And who, because they don't, aren't attached to a religious tradition that will give them content and belief systems and foundations. Now, they're kind of trying to figure it out on their own and do a kind of patchwork which can be really difficult. You know, if I say like, Well, you know, I, I don't know much about Buddhism, but from what I've heard, it sounds good. Where do I start? He's like, Well, here's 1000s of years of tradition, what how do I how do I Pierce this, but a system that uses artificial intelligence to help you to identify your sort of spiritual markers, and then give you content that will help you along that journey? Yeah, there's some potential in that. Hopefully, there's some danger in that as well. In then you are giving your basically turning an algorithm, an opaque algorithm, into your guru, or your priest, or you're putting a lot of trust into something that you don't understand. And you're also trying to sort of skim off the top of very deep ancient wisdom traditions. Which, if you haven't worked through all of the implications, and all of the how deep the root system goes of each individual wisdom tradition, it can be a little dangerous to just kind of cherry pick little things here and there. But the we're kind of just on the cusp of this and so we're we're figuring out Can we move before we can figure out the Should we?

 

Ian Binns 45:04

Well, and I think too, it's one of the things I was just looking at reminding myself on is that there are certain things I think AI could do very well now, that it may be doing some situations, but not everything. And it was talking, you know, one of the examples are talking about for education, for example, is, you know, helping with tasks, administrative type tasks. So like grading, for example, you know, I never make a secret to students that the hardest part of the profession is grading, because it can be very time consuming. Because you want to give solid feedback. And then at times, it's just, it can be very exhausting. And so it's not as fun this is the rest of the job. And so one of the things that it was just talking about here, and I was actually, this was happening this semester, when I've got, like a lot of lesson plans to grade or whatever, especially the first round. And I'm, you know, the feedback I'm giving is very similar. And so I actually was starting to create a document, separate document for myself that I would just and I know faculty to do this, they just put the sample feedback that they give on that document, and then they can go and just copy and paste, and then you change what you need to change, obviously, but that there are some, some some general things that you share with students. And so what but what this what I was just reading was talking about, you know, the hints that like when you're writing a gmail message, the AI that's built into that knows your the way you normally write messages, and so it can finish the sentences for you, then you have the option of accepting that or not. Right. And so this was saying that, you know, what if we had that ability within the learning management systems that universities are using, and also now k 12. But that Google that Gmail autocorrect autofill is not just learned by your inbox, that's a universal one.

 

Zack Jackson 46:51

Google actually has been creating this, this kind of massive AI system that is based on massive amounts of data trolled from the internet, they're they're basically just gathering absurd amounts of data from emails and websites and forums and everything that they can get their hands on in order to train their artificial intelligence to then do things like that, or the autocomplete in search optimizations across the board. The problem with that is, there's a lot of awful things on the internet. There's a lot of awful things on the internet, this podcast not being one of them, but the rest of them are pretty awful. And so without there being some really stringent set of guidelines, you have the potential to create an awful AI. And there's not really any way of testing that if you're just sending it out to gather all the information at once. And the woman who was in charge of Google's artificial intelligence machine learning ethics team, I forget the exact name. She published a paper questioning Google's algorithm and their their data collection, and the ethics behind it. And then she got fired for it. So you know, that Google fire ethics leader, and then the second in command, backed her up and was also questioning this, and then she got fired. And it was not that long ago. No, it wasn't, it wasn't very recent. And Google made up some excuse about malfeasance in the workplace, and whatever. But it's a bad Look, when your ethics department questions your ethics, and then you fire them. Very bad, right? And

 

48:55

what do they know,

 

Zack Jackson 48:55

this is why you have an ethics department to help you be ethical. Google's slogan at one point was Don't be evil. And I feel like they just they just got a lot of money. And then it just, I don't know, that's, that's not as appealing anymore. Don't be evil. So there's, when you're talking about like, big data collection that trains algorithms, it's really important to ask yourself what you're training with. And then what that's doing to us. I mentioned, I think, in this in the last episode, how much our own communication patterns are changing because of autocorrect. And we're becoming more like the machines rather than the machines becoming more like us, because we're learning how to talk based on autocorrect. And that's true in Gmail, and that's true in Microsoft Word as it's doing that now too. And text messages and all kinds of things. Yeah, that's think about like with

 

Ian Binns 49:59

time Right with texting and people use shorthand, you know, and that means lol right? But other ones too, like just shorthand stuff. And IMHO my humble opinion, bola right when I have in the past gotten emails from students who have used the shorthand and irregular email to me, there have been times it hasn't bothered me too much. But there have been times where I've kind of said, you know, well, it's just, it's okay to spell it out. Right, just because it's really not that hard when you're typing fast on a keyboard or something like that, if that's what you're using. But you also think to that, you know, what I remember several years ago, having to talk to some students about that kind of stuff, because they were kind of, you know, commenting on why is it that, you know, professors may not like this or something. And I kind of reminded them, I said, Well, in this department and our program, we are teaching you to teach future people. Part of that is writing and reading. And so that may be one way that those professors look at your ability to write is to, you know, in your, in your regular communication, can you put together a sentence correctly, a paragraph correctly, those are things that we need to know you can do so that you get certified to teach others how to do the same thing. And if everything is written to us is shorthand lingo like that, then it's harder for us to tell.

 

Zack Jackson 51:31

Well, you know, when the first instance of OMG was no 1917, in a letter from Lord Fisher to Winston Churchill, gee OMG Oh, wow.

 

Kendra Holt-Moore 51:48

I want to look up all raphel and evolve.

 

Zack Jackson 51:55

The first usage of rafflecopter was in 1312, under and I gotta tell you, I looked that up in a separate tab because if I opened my phone to do it, my tree would die.