Down the Wormhole

Faith, Astronomy, and Space Telescopes with Dr Jennifer Wiseman

Episode 96
We are beyond thrilled to welcome Dr Jennifer Wiseman to the podcast today. We talk about her faith journey as well as her work in astronomy as she helps us to understand why the James Webb Space Telescope (launching this week), is going to take the Hubble to the next level. Her enthusiasm and wonder is contagious, so I hope you're ready to be inspired! 
 
Dr Jennifer Wiseman is the Director of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) program of Dialogue on Science, Ethics, and Religion (DoSER). She is also an astrophysicist, studying the formation of stars and planetary systems using radio, optical, and infrared telescopes. She studied physics for her bachelor’s degree at MIT, discovering comet Wiseman-Skiff in 1987. After earning her Ph.D. in astronomy from Harvard University in 1995, she continued her research as a Jansky Fellow at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory and as a Hubble Fellow at the Johns Hopkins University. She also has an interest in national science policy and has served as an American Physical Society Congressional Science Fellow. She has worked with several major observatories and is currently a senior astrophysicist at the Goddard Space Flight Center.  She is also a public speaker and author, and enjoys giving talks on the inspiration of astronomy and scientific discovery to schools, youth and church groups, and civic organizations. She is a Fellow of the American Scientific Affiliation and a former Councilor of the American Astronomical Society.
 
https://sciencereligiondialogue.org/
https://hubblesite.org/
https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/
https://roman.gsfc.nasa.gov/ 
 
 
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produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript 
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
Zack Jackson 00:05
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion.
 
Ian Binns 00:13
Our guest today is the director of the American Association for the Advancement of Science program of dialogue on science, ethics and religion, also known as dozer. She is also an astrophysicist studying the formation of stars and planetary systems using radio, optical and infrared telescopes. She studied physics for her bachelor's degree at MIT discovering comet Wiseman Skiff in 1987. After earning her PhD in astronomy from Harvard University in 1995, she continued her research as the Jansky fellow at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, and as a Hubble Fellow at the Johns Hopkins University. She also has an interest in national science policy and has served as an American Physical Society congressional science fellow. She has worked with several major observatories, and is currently a senior astrophysicist at the Goddard Space Flight Center. She's also a public speaker and author and enjoys giving talks and inspiration of astronomy and scientific discovery to schools, youth and church groups, and civic organizations. She's a fellow of the American scientific affiliation, and a former Counselor of the American Astronomical Society. We're very excited to welcome Dr. Jennifer Wiseman to the show today.
 
Jennifer Wiseman 01:22
Thank you, it's my pleasure to join you.
 
Ian Binns 01:25
So, um, Jennifer, again, thank you for agreeing to come and talk, we just, you know, we've met you and I met several years ago, I know that you and Zach know each other as well. And so we kind of wanted to start off with what got you into astronomy. And then how did that grow to include your science and religion work as well,
 
Jennifer Wiseman 01:47
I grew up out in a rural area in Arkansas, on a family farm. And so I was just surrounded by nature growing up, we lived in a pretty area that had nearby lakes and rivers. So I enjoyed everything about the natural world, I thought we had animals of our own livestock and pets, but also lots of wildlife that I enjoyed seeing. And then I also enjoy just wandering around meadows and the streams and, you know, swimming, and kayaking, and all those kinds of things. And that made me appreciate the natural world, we also had dark night skies when I was growing up. So we could go out at night and see stars from horizon to horizon. And that is such a rare treat these days, most people live in cities or suburbs and have stray light from parking lots and stores and streets that create a glow in the sky and really drown out a lot of the beauty of seeing stars, unfortunately. But I was able to see the night sky, we would go on evening walks my parents and dogs and and I would enjoy these these regular walks. And I would imagine what it was like to, to go up where the stars are. And I would I was curious. So I think that started me out just being naturally curious about nature. And then science was a kind of a natural affinity then because science is basically the formal study of how nature works. And I had good teachers in my public schools who encouraged me in all kinds of subjects, science, mathematics, but also humanities and music. But all of that together, I think was the foundation and then Pair that with as I was growing up, there was a lot of flurry of interest about space exploration, the Voyager spacecraft, were just sending the first images back to earth, of moons around planets in our solar system, close up views we've never had before. I just thought this was fascinating. And you know, a lot of science fiction like Star Wars movies and things were starting to come out in the late 70s and 80s. And I was caught up in that too. So there was a lot of social interest in space, as well as my own natural affinity for nature. And all of that together, I think set the foundation for my interest in doing something related to the space program, but I didn't have a clue as to how to get involved in it. But thankfully, I had teachers and encouraging family and church that just encouraged me to go on and try anything I wanted. So I went on to study science.
 
Zack Jackson 04:42
That's beautiful.
 
Ian Binns 04:43
Yeah, there's a lot to take away from that. One of the things I love the most is you referred to Star Wars and Star Wars fans. Thank you for that.
 
Zack Jackson 04:53
genre that we've we've spent quite some time on this podcast talking about the value of science fiction and how it implants This sorts of love of cosmos in love of the world into people into children's minds. And so they grow up to great things. Yeah, that's so sorry. Go ahead. Sorry, I'm walking all over you. So I'm, I hear you say that there was a lot of support from family from, from friends and teachers and even church. Did you get any of that? That sort of feeling that science and and God are at odds that so many young Christians did as they're growing up? Did you taste any of that? Or was it all supportive?
 
Jennifer Wiseman 05:36
I never had any sense that there should be some kind of conflict between science and faith. In fact, quite the opposite. I grew up again, in a in a place where nature just surrounded us, it was a rural area where people had farms or they enjoy recreation on the lakes and rivers, and it was pretty and so we just naturally correlated the beauty of the natural world with our faith and our love for God, because we understood that God is the Creator, and God is responsible for the creation and called it good. So I think at a very basic level there, there really wasn't any sense of conflict, quite the opposite that science was the study of God's handiwork. And we should be grateful for that. Now, when it came to the particulars, like how do you interpret the opening verses of the biblical book of Genesis, that seems to stipulate that all of creation came into being in a few literal days and those kinds of things? You know, I think we, we probably took that rather literally in church and so forth. We didn't have any reason not to. But I think I was also given a sense of humility that our pastors and things would would tell us that God doesn't give us all the details in in Scripture that, that He's given us just enough for what we need to know to have a relationship with God, but but he's also given us mines and other tools and giving us more knowledge as time goes on. And so I think, even though I was probably schooled in a more literalistic view of Scripture growing up, I was also given a sense of humility, that there might be more to it than just what is more two more information that that God will give us than just what's written in Scripture. So I think that enabled me as I began to learn more about the scientific picture of the vast size and age of the universe and the development of life, I was able to correlate that with a humble view of scripture that God didn't give us all these details in Scripture, but delights in us using scientific knowledge to learn some of these rich details, and wow, are they Rich, I mean, the universe is not small. It's enormous, beyond our wildest imaginations, both in space and time. And I think that's something that fascinates me the most about astronomy is that it is a time machine, we can use telescopes to see out and that is equivalent to seeing back in time has taken time for the light to get to us from either planets in our solar system, or other stars or distant galaxies. And we can see how the universe has changed over time by looking back in time to distant objects in space. So I think what I did pick up growing up in terms of attention is more of a philosophical tension. I remember watching my favorite program on television, which was the cosmos program, which was a wonderful exploration of the universe. And I really admire Carl Sagan to this day, I'm so grateful for how he opened my eyes to the mysteries of the solar system and the universe beyond and introduced me to these images coming from the Voyager probes of the outer solar system, things like that. But every once in a while he and some other well, spoken scientist would interject some philosophical opinions and things that were kind of denigrating toward religion or religious faith and I picked that up even as a teenager and as a child. I couldn't quite articulate it, but I even then could sense that while I loved the Science, I didn't like some of the content Have dismissive comments I was hearing about religious faith and I, you know, I just kind of put tuck that away, in my mind kind of puzzling. Why does there have to be some kind of, of denigration of faith when you're talking about the majesties of science and, and then, of course, as I became an adult and a scientist, I realized that there is, of course, a strong difference between what the science is telling us about the natural world and how it works. And human philosophical interpretation of which there can be different opinions. And and trying to separate, you know, what is the science telling us from? What are the different human interpretations of what the natural world is telling us about human purpose and meaning, and even our beliefs and God and purpose. And I'm able to do that much better as a as an adult scientist, and to see where that wind falls, then I think a lot of folks in the public may be prepared for when they hear a scientist kind of crossing the line between talking about just the science and expressing personal philosophical views.
 
Zack Jackson 11:12
But I think you do so with the same sort of humility, like it spills over from, from your study of astronomy into your, into your religion and philosophy, that, like you study the stars, and you see the unbelievable fakeness. And you just can't help but let that spill over into everything that well, why would I know everything about philosophy? Why would I know everything about God, that's absurd. I don't even know everything about our solar system. There's like a certain humility, I think that comes from, from when you're really into, into that kind of science that I appreciate, I think, I think astronomy makes me a better Christian, or at least a more of a mystical one. Anyway,
 
Jennifer Wiseman 11:57
I think what astronomy does for me is not you know, sort of prove God or something like that, I think it's very hard to take something from the natural world and use it to prove or disprove something that isn't confined to just the natural, observable world. But what it does do, being a person of faith as I am in enrich that faith, I mean, I believe in God as the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. And when I learn more about what that universe is like, that means that my reverence for God is much deeper. I mean, it's almost scary when you think about the ages of time we're talking about in terms of our own universe, and there may be other universes too, that we don't even know anything about. And yet we read in Scripture, that the same God who's responsible for this 13 point a billion years of the universe, and its content, and its evolution, is also concerned with the lives of us and of the sparrow, you know, of the, of the individual, what we would call insignificant wife in terms of time and space, and yet God chooses to call us significant because of God's own choosing and love. And so it's that kind of, you know, the infinitely large almost, and the infinitely small, almost, that God encompasses that's very hard for me to comprehend. But it does deepen my, my reverent fear and my appreciation for the kind of God that that we read about in Scripture, and that we experience as people of faith.
 
Zack Jackson 13:54
So you are the director of the American, the American Association for the Advancement of Science program of dialogue on science, ethics and religion, which is a huge mouthful. Which is triple A S. dozer, you know, for those who like acronyms, which is an organization that I think every single one of our listeners, like if you if you subscribe to this podcast, and this is an organization that you would be interested in learning more about, but I would wager to guess that a lot of them have never heard of it. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do and what the organization does and what kind of resources are available, how they can connect?
 
Jennifer Wiseman 14:40
Sure. Okay, so so the the world's largest scientific society is the American Association for the Advancement of Science. And that organization does exactly what it sounds like it triple as advances science for the good of people around the world. So AAA is publishes a journal scientific journal called science that many have heard of, or even written scientific articles for. AAA is also advocates the good use of science in society. So, AAA is has public education programs and programs helping legislators to see how science is beneficial to people in all walks of life, triple as sponsors some programs to advocate science for advancing human rights, and to work with different components of society to make sure science is being used to the benefit of all people. One of those programs is this dialogue program called the dialogue on science, ethics and religion, or doser. It's the you can find out about it by the website as.org/doser DDoS, er doser was thought of back in the 1990s, when scientists realized that to really be effective and communicating with people, we needed to understand how important religion and faith is in people's lives. And if we're really going to interface with different communities, especially in the US, we need to recognize that people's faith identity is a very important part of their worldview. Most people identify with a religion or a religious tradition, as an important aspect of their identity, and how they get a lot of their sense of values and worldview, including how they see the world and hear and articulate science and its use in their lives and work in ministries and so forth. So if scientists are not understanding of the importance of religion and faith in the lives of most people, and if they're not able to articulate science in a way that brings people on board and listen to the values of people from faith communities, then scientists are really missing a huge chance of understanding the value of science and how it can be incorporated into the lives of our culture. So the doser program was invented back in the 1990s, to start building those relationships between scientists and religious communities. These are religious communities of all faiths, and scientists of any faith or no faith, but building a dialogue about how science is important in the lives of our people in our culture. Today, the dozer program is very active, we have several projects, one of them, I think you guys are particularly knowledgeable, that is our science for seminaries project, where we work with seminaries from across the country, and even beyond the US that are interested in, in incorporating good science into the training of future pastors and congregational leaders, because science is a part of everyone's life today. So if a church wants to serve the world in the most effective way, they need to know to how to incorporate science into their ministries, if they want to be relevant to our culture, especially for young people, they need to understand the role of science. It's not just the old arguments about science and creation and evolution. A lot of people when they think about science and religion, they immediately wonder if there's some kind of an argument about how old the the world is. And you know, there are still some very interesting questions, of course, about How did life come into being and so forth. But most faith communities now are really much more excited about talking about many other aspects of science as well like space exploration. Could there be life beyond Earth or, or more practical things? How do we incorporate good science into ministries to the poor or helping people around the world have better food better, cleaner water? How do we get the best science incorporated into the best health care practices? I mean, this is of course come to the forefront during this pandemic with COVID-19 and trying to understand the science of vaccinations and the social reality of distributing vaccine and getting people to understand and trust the science enough to become protected as best we can against the terrible disease. So all these aspects Our I think invigorating a dialogue between faith communities and scientists in our dozer program really seeks to bring scientists and faith communities into better relationship and contact. And of course, these are overlapping communities. I mean, a lot of scientists themselves are people of faith from various faith traditions. But even scientists who are not or not, for the most part, are not hostile to faith communities, they just need a better architecture for building dialogue and relationship. In fact, most scientists already of course, are interfacing with people of faith, whether they know it or not the students in their classrooms, people in their lab and so forth. And so we also hold workshops for scientists, at scientific society meetings, and at research universities to help scientists better understand the important role that faith plays in the lives of many, probably most people in the US if you look at the polls, and how to make sure that they are incorporating a respect for that faith component of people's lives when they're talking about science in their classrooms, and, and in their interface with people in their public spheres of influence. Not just to help welcome people into science, but also to help people see how science is relevant to the values they already have.
 
Ian Binns 21:26
So I'm curious if we can shift a little bit a UML mentioned in your bio, that you've did have done some work with Hubble, the Hubble Space Telescope, and you know, we, this is going to be versus being released, hopefully, in the same day that the new The Next Generation Space Telescope, the James Webb Space Telescope will be launched. And so can you talk to us a little bit about your work with the Hubble Space Telescope, and then maybe the distinction between Hubble that a lot of people know about and the new one, the James Webb Space Telescope and what your hopes are for that.
 
Jennifer Wiseman 22:02
I've had the privilege of working with many different types of telescopes throughout my astronomical career. My own research is based on the use of radio telescopes, which are these big dish shaped telescopes. My doctoral research used an array of them out in New Mexico called the Very Large Array or the VLA. In fact, you can drive out there and see the Very Large Array, southwest of Albuquerque. And with these kinds of telescopes, I've been able to study how stars form in interstellar clouds, you can peer in through the dust and see some of these regions where infant stars are forming. I've also used and worked with the Hubble Space Telescope, which is a platform that's now become very famous Hubble is a is a satellite orbiting the Earth. It's not very far above the earth just a little over 300 miles above the surface of the Earth, but it's up there to get it above the clouds. So you can get a much clearer image of objects in deep space, whether you're observing planets or stars or distant galaxies and Hubble has been operating for almost 32 years now, thanks to repeated visits from astronauts that have kept the observatory functioning by replacing cameras from time to time and repairing electronics. So so the the observatories in very good shape. We're recording this discussion right now in mid December looking forward to next week what we're anticipating as it's the launch of another very large space telescope called the James Webb Space Telescope, named after a NASA administrator who was a science supporter back in the Apollo years. This telescope will be every bit as good as Hubble in terms of getting beautiful images of space. But it will also be different from Hubble because it will be very sensitive to infrared wavelengths of light, the Hubble telescope sees visible light like our eyes can see. And even energetic light that's bluer than blue ultraviolet light, which is emitted from energetic processes in galaxies and in regions where stars are forming. Hubble can even see a little bit into the infrared part of the spectrum of light, so that's a little redder than red, which helps us to see somewhat into these interstellar clouds I mentioned where stars are still forming and planets are forming and to see very distant galaxies because as we look out into distance space, light from very distant galaxies has taken millions, sometimes billions of years to come. To us, and as it's traveling through expanding space, that light loses some of its energy, it gets shifted into what we call the reddened part of the spectrum, we get red shifted. Because it's stretched the wavelength of light, we can think of it as being stretched as they pass through expanding space to get to our telescope. And so some of those galaxies even though the light started its trip as blue eight from stars and ends up being infrared light when we receive it here, Hubble can see some of those very distant galaxies, which we're seeing as they were very far back in time when they were just infant galaxies. But some of those galaxies that light is redshift, and even beyond what Hubble can see in this new Webb Space Telescope will see infrared light much farther into the infrared part of the electromagnetic spectrum than Hubble can see. So the Webb telescope will be able to see galaxies even earlier in the history of our universe, when they were just starting to form. And that will complement the kinds of galaxies and the kinds of information that Hubble sees for us. So, you know, we talked about the universe being about 13 point 8 billion years old, which we can glean from various different types of information about the universe. We're now seeing galaxies as they were forming for Well, within that first point, eight of the 13 point 8 billion year history of the universe, we're really seeing the universe at when it was basically in its childhood, and the Webb telescope will show us proto galaxies, the very first generations of stars and gas kind of coalescing as gravity holds it together in the very first few 100,200,000,000 years of the universe after its beginning, so we're excited about that closer to home, the Webb telescope will also see into that deeper into that infrared part of the spectrum that allows us to see deeper into these nurseries of interstellar gas in our own galaxy, where stars are forming and planets are forming and disks around those stars. And to gather the Hubble Telescope, which we anticipate will keep working for quite a few more years, and the Webb telescope will provide complimentary information. For example, when we look at star forming regions, the Hubble Telescope will tell us something about emission in visible light and ultraviolet light. Webb Telescope will give us the infrared part that gives us a lot more information about what those baby stars are like as they form. And even more exciting, we're now we're now discovering that there are planets around other stars we call those exoplanets because they're outside our solar system. We can study something about their atmospheres and in their composition of those atmospheres. Hubble tells us something about the atoms and molecules that emit their light and visible wavelengths and in ultraviolet wavelengths. The Webb telescope gives us information from molecules in these exoplanet atmospheres that emit in infrared wavelengths. So then we can get a whole spectrum of information, we can know whether some of these exoplanets have water vapor, whether they have oxygen, have other kinds of things that we really want to know about exoplanets, and what they're like. So, complimentary science is the name of the game as we look forward to the James Webb Space Telescope, and we think about how it will work in complement to the Hubble Space Telescope in the coming years.
 
Zack Jackson 28:56
I bet you blew my mind in about seven different times in the past couple of years. So I'm not entirely sure where to go with the fact that you can point to telescope towards an exoplanet and look at the way that light passes through the tiny sliver of an atmosphere and be able to then tell what that atmosphere is made out of. That blows my mind.
 
Jennifer Wiseman 29:32
Well, the Hubble Space Telescope was actually the pioneer of this method of studying exoplanets. To study exoplanets, you have to be kind of like a detective because you have to use indirect methods to detect them in the first place, and even to study much about them. I mean, we would all like to simply point a camera at another planet, outside our solar system and take a nice picture But these things are really small. They are tiny objects orbiting bright things we call stars, and they get lost in the glare of the star. So astronomers have to use indirect methods to detect them to detect exoplanets. The first ones were detected not by seeing the planet, but by seeing how the star it was orbiting would wobble in its orbit. And that's because there's a gravitational mutual tug between a planet and its parent star. So even if you can't see the planet, you can see the star wobbling a little bit in its position as the planet orbits around, and they're both actually orbiting what's called the center of mass between the two. So the first exoplanets were detected by noticing stars periodically wobbling in their position, and determining from that what mass of planet, we would need to create that much of a wobble. And then the idea of transiting exoplanets was explored. That is certain planets happened to orbit their parent star in a plane that's along our line of sight as we're looking toward that star. And that means every time the planet passes in front of its parent star, it blocks out a little bit of that star light from our view. So even if we can't see the planet, we can see the starlight dimming just a little bit periodically as the planet orbits in front of it. Those transit observations were used by the Kepler space telescope, to discover hundreds of new exoplanet candidates. In fact, we have 1000s of them of systems simply by looking at the parent star and seeing them dim periodically and then doing follow up observations with other telescopes to really confirm whether or not what's causing that is, is an exoplanet. They have Hubble Telescope has taken this one step farther, which is using transits to, to study the composition of the atmospheres of some of these exoplanets. So when a planet passes in front of its parent star, not only does it block out some of the starlight, but some of the starlight passes through that outer rim of the planet's atmosphere along the outer limb on its way to as it passes through. And that atmosphere, what depending on what's in the planet's atmosphere will absorb some of that light. If there are molecules and atoms in the atmosphere, it will absorb light at very certain colors or frequencies. So a spectroscopy just can take that light and spread it out into its constituent colors, kind of like using a prism. And you can see the very particular color band where light is missing because atoms or molecules in that exoplanet atmosphere have absorbed it. And so we have, we have instruments on the Hubble Space Telescope, that are what we call spectrograph. They don't take the pretty pictures, they simply take the light and spread it out into its constituent frequencies or colors, like a prism and see where there are very particular color bands missing. And that pattern tells us what's been munched out, and that tells us what kinds of atoms or molecules are in the exoplanet atmosphere. So Hubble was the first observatory to be used to determine the composition of an exoplanet atmosphere. And now this has grown into a huge astronomical industry, if you will, of using telescopes, Hubble and other telescopes to do spectroscopic analysis of the atmospheres of exoplanets to learn something about their composition. And here, we're excited about this new webb space telescope that's going to do that as well. But in the far infrared in the sorry, in the mid infrared part of the electromagnetic spectrum, where we can do we can determine even more molecules and kinds of diagnostics that tell us more about what's in these exoplanet atmospheres. We want to know whether planets outside of our solar system are similar or different to planets inside our solar system. And of course, we'd like to know if any of them are habitable for life. We don't yet have the technology sadly to visit planets that are outside our solar system and take samples of their atmospheres or their their dirt if they have dirt or things like that, but we can observe them remotely and so that is what we're trying to perfect are these techniques of taking remote information Like the spectrum of light from an exoplanet atmosphere, and determining from that, what's in that atmosphere. And then from there we can discern whether or not there might be habitability for life. Like we know we need water for life as we know it. So could there be water on one of these exoplanets, or even signs of biological activity, we know that if we looked at Planet Earth from a distance, we would see oxygen in the atmosphere. And that's evidence of, of the work of plant life on our Earth's surface, generating oxygen, this kind of, of process photosynthesis tells us that there's an ongoing biological community, if you will, on planet Earth, otherwise, all the oxygen in the atmosphere would disappear through reactions, but the fact that we have continuing refreshed oxygen tells us that there's biological activity on our planet. If we saw oxygen, as well as other indicators in the atmospheres of other planets, that would be a clue that there might be biological activity there. So we're taking steps the Webb telescope will give us more information than Hubble and then future telescopes beyond Webb will be able to discern whether there are earth like planets with truly Earth light compositions in their atmospheres in in star systems around our galactic neighborhood. So the web is the next step in a whole series of future telescopes that astronomers are planning.
 
Ian Binns 36:39
That's exciting. Yeah. And I, and doing a little bit of research on James Webb and comparing it to the Hubble and and, you know, I've always been a huge fan of the Hubble Space Telescope and you know, have little models of it. Growing up when you know, I'm a huge LEGO fan, when Lego released the new space shuttle model. In the spring, the one that had Hubble with it was really exotic, so I could kind of build the space shuttle and Hubble. And so but doing those comparisons, I then saw just now the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, that's in production, I guess, right? And,
 
Jennifer Wiseman 37:22
yes, so So the Nancy Grace Roman space telescope is named after you guessed it, Nancy Grace Roman, who was just a phenomenal pioneer in the history of NASA's foray into space astronomy, she was the first chief astronomer at NASA headquarters. And back in the 1970s, she was the one who advocated the idea of NASA building a space telescope. Now scientists had been talking about this for even decades about what you could do if you could put a telescope in space, but to actually get it implemented, required someone with a NASA headquarters to champion this idea. And she did, she got it started with a NASA Headquarters back in the 1970s. And that ended up being the Hubble Space Telescope. So she's sometimes referred to as the mother of Hubble. She passed away just recently, but she remained an active interested scientist for all of her life. So this telescope now that's being developed is named in her honor the the Roman space telescope, and it will again complement these other space telescopes, it will complement the Webb Space Telescope, which will launch sooner. And the Hubble Space Telescope, which is already operating, the Roman telescope will be an infrared telescope, you know, like the Webb telescope is, is an infrared Space Telescope. But the difference is that Roman is going to have a much wider field of view, that means it will see a much wider swath of the sky than either Hubble, or the Webb telescope can do. If, if Hubble wants to survey a wide, wider region of the sky, it has to do hundreds of little postage stamp observations and stitch it all together. And we've done that and we've done for example, a Hubble observation of a big part of the disk of the Andromeda Galaxy, which is our nearest big spiral galaxy, and we learned a lot by stitching together little postage stamp observation after observation. This is a project led by Professor Julianne del Canton and her team called the fat program which which is is spelled ph 80. But it's it's Hubble Andromeda Treasury program to look at stars in this nearby galaxy. But it's taken a long time. The Roman telescope can do this wide swath of the sky with just, you know, one exposure because it can see such a wider swath of the sky. And the other thing, the other kind of science that it's really being designed to do is to study the distribution of galaxies. Hubble's really good at looking at an individual galaxy and telling us a lot of information. But if you want to know how hundreds or 1000s of galaxies are distributed around the sky, it takes a long time, my favorite image from Hubble is called the Ultra Deep Field. I don't know if you've seen it. But it was a product of just pointing Hubble in one direction, the sky and collecting faint light over many days. And the product is this collection of little blotches of light that you might think are stars, but each one of them is actually another galaxy like like like or unlike the Milky Way each one that can contain billions of stars. And so if you imagine that extrapolated over the entire sky, you get a sense of how rich our universe is. But as wonderful as that deep field is, and you can see 1000s of galaxies, you can't get a sense of how galaxies are really distributed across wider swaths of the sky because it is a small field of view. The Roman telescope, which should be launched later, this decade, will have a wide field of view that can see how the patterns of galaxies have taken shape. Throughout cosmic history. We know that galaxies are distributed in more of a honeycomb fashion, there are regions where there aren't many galaxies, we call them, voids, voids. And then there are regions where there are kind of quite a few galaxies collected together. We know now that throughout the billions of years of cosmic history, there's been kind of a tug of war between gravity, which is trying to pull things together. And that's creating galaxies and even clusters of galaxies that are held together by their mutual gravitational pool. And something that's pushing things apart, we now know that the universe is not only expanding, but that expansion is getting faster. So something is, is kind of pushing out. And we're calling that dark energy, because we don't really know what it is, it may be some repulsive aspect of gravity. Over time, this tug of war between dark energy pushing things apart, and the matter pulling things together, through what we would call traditional gravitational pull has resulted in the distribution of galaxies that we now have today, we would like to understand that better. And the Roman Space Telescope is going to help us see how galaxies have been distributed across space throughout cosmic time. And then the Webb telescope, and the Hubble telescope can help us hone in on very specific galaxies and small clusters to give us more detail. So again, we use different observatories in complement, because they each have their own kind of unique scientific niche of what they can tell us. And together, we get a much better bigger picture of what's going on in the universe. And we also use telescopes on the ground that are getting more and more sophisticated in what they can do to complement telescopes in space. So all of these facilities work in complement.
 
Ian Binns 43:51
So I'm curious, Jennifer, you know, with Hubble, and you're especially bringing up the Ultra Deep Field. And before that there was so the Hubble Deep Field, and then the hobo Ultra Deep Field, right. And they were both just unbelievable. To look at. I remember when they both came out. And I cannot remember the years, obviously, but I do remember, I think the Hubble are the first one I was able to use and I was a high school science teacher. But it was just unbelievable to look at these things. Will there be with the James Webb Space Telescope? For example? Will we is there will there be an effort to kind of point it in the same direction? You know, the Hubble has been pointing out and look at either the same areas that Hubble's looked at to see what else we could get from that location. And then also to Will there be something kind of like the Hubble Ultra Deep Field with the James Webb, like, is there going to be do you know, or is that just anything is possible?
 
Jennifer Wiseman 44:52
Oh, absolutely. I mean, one of the main drivers for the the James Webb Space Telescope was this desire to look at the Deep feels like Hubble has done. But to be able to see galaxies that are even more distant than what Hubble can pick up the these distant galaxies, of course, we're not seeing them as they actually are right this minute, we're seeing them as they were when the light began its track from those galaxies across space, to our telescope. And for some of these galaxies in these deep fields, those galaxies are billions of what we call light years away a light year is a unit of distance is the distance that light travels in a year. So when we see a galaxy that's billions of light years away, we're seeing it as it was billions of years back in time. And as that light has traveled across space to get to our telescope, it's traveled through space that is actually expanding, that creates what we call a red shifting effect, the light that we receive is redder than it was when it started, it's its journey. And sometimes that red shifting goes all the way into the infrared part of the spectrum, even beyond what Hubble can pick up. So for these most distant galaxies, we anticipate that a lot of them are shining most of their light in, in a wavelength that's become shifted into the infrared part of the spectrum that only the Webb telescope will pick up, it will pick up galaxies and see them that that the Hubble Deep fields haven't seen so we anticipate seeing even more galaxies with the Webb telescope than Hubble has seen. And yet Hubble can see galaxies in ways that the web won't be able to see Hubble can see the ultraviolet light from the more nearby galaxies. And we can then put a picture together as how as to how galaxies have changed. Over time, by comparing those early infant galaxies at the Webb telescope, we'll pick up with the galaxies that Hubble can see brightly in ultraviolet light that won't be as bright in the infrared light that Webb can see. And then all those intermediate galaxies that we pick up, the infrared light from the Webb telescope and the visible and ultraviolet light from Hubble, and we can put all that information together to make deep feels like we've never had before. So yes, we're going to see the same deals that Hubble has seen, Webb will look at and pick up more galaxies, and then other deep fields Webb will look at. And we will we're already doing preparatory science with Hubble knowing that we want to use Webb for the things that Webb uniquely can do, and can use it in complement with what Hubble can already do. So we're already doing what we call preparatory observations. With Hubble, that makes sure that we understand everything we can about these different fields of galaxies with Hubble, so that we know just the kinds of things we want to learn with JT VST. And we use that telescope as efficiently as we can, once it gets going. You know, the Webb telescope is anticipated as we record this to be launching in late December. But it'll take several months for it to get out where it will be perched a million miles more and more from Earth. That's a lot farther away than Hubble is, but it's being put that far away from Earth to keep it very cool. So that it can pick up the faintest infrared light from these distant galaxies, and from these closer to home star forming regions. So we won't be getting science images from the web for quite a few months, as it makes this trek out into a much more distant part of space than the Hubble telescope. So we're gonna have to be patient. But I'm looking forward to those first science images coming in, in the in the middle part of 2022. If all goes well,
 
Zack Jackson 48:57
so when we do start to get those images, wow, if they're in the infrared, what will they look like to us humans? Will they have to be artificially colored? Or?
 
Jennifer Wiseman 49:09
Yes, so so the the Webb telescope will see red light that we can see. But then beyond read into the infrared that we cannot see. And the Hubble itself also sees Light We Cannot See. So Hubble picks up visible light that we can see. But Hubble's picks up ultraviolet light that we can't see and also near infrared light that we cannot see. So already with Hubble images, we have to give them colors that our eyes can see so that we can have a picture to look at. So for Hubble images, if you read carefully, it will tell you whether what you're seeing is visible light or if it's for example, near infrared light, it will be given a red hue so that you can see that part of the spectrum showing up In in the eyes, your colors your eyes can see, we usually label the things on Hubble images. So you know exactly what the color coding is. The Webb telescope images will be likewise sort of translated into colors that we can see in pictures and photographs so that the part of the infrared spectrum that is closer to visible light will be colored, a little less red, maybe even blue. And the part of the infrared spectrum that the web will pick up that's deeper into the infrared part of the spectrum will be colored, very red. And so you'll you'll see probably a, a, a legend that, you know, next to these James Webb images that tell you the range of colors that it's actually picking up and what that has been translated to in the colors that have been put into the image, it's, it's not just any color goes these, usually what happens is you try to make the color range that's on the image as close to the span of color as the actual information is, but just transferred over into a band that our eyes can see. So yes, you have to do something, or else you couldn't see it, with our eyes looking at a picture, because we can't see infrared light. And the same is already true with Hubble images that go beyond just the visible light of the spectrum.
 
Ian Binns 51:35
I'm just in awe. It's just, I've always loved astronomy, and you know, it's something that I've always just been passionate about. What is it that you're most excited about? And I'm sorry, I just you know, in listening to you talk about it, you may have talked some already. But with this, the Webb Space Telescope, the Nancy Grace, Roman, and telescope and all these different ones that are coming, what is it that you're most excited about with these things?
 
Jennifer Wiseman 52:06
I think I'm most excited about what you might call two extremes of the spacial scale of the Universe. With these new telescopes, like the the Webb Space Telescope, and then later the Roman Space Telescope. I'm excited about getting even a better understanding of how the universe we live in has become hospitable over billions of years for life, we can actually, you know, look at the earliest galaxies and compare them to galaxies, like our own Milky Way and intermediate time galaxies as well. And we can see how they've changed over these billions of years of time, we can't follow an individual galaxy as it changed. But we can look at the whole population at these different epochs of time. And we can tell that galaxies have merged together and become bigger over time we think our own Milky Way is the project product of mergers. And we can tell that stars have come and gone in these galaxies, massive stars don't live that long. And so they they produce heavier elements that we need four planets in life. As they shine, they, they they go through a process, a process called Fusion that creates heavier elements. And then when the massive stars become unstable, and run out of fuel, they explode and disperse that material into these interstellar clouds where the next generations of stars form. So we know there's been several generations of stars building upon prior generations. And all that process does is to create heavier elements that enable things like planets to form around star. So in our own galaxy, when stars are still forming, we see them forming with discs of dusty debris and planets forming around them. We know that that's only possible because of previous generations of stars in the galaxy that have created heavier elements. So as as we look at this process of the whole universe, the whole cosmos becoming more hospitable to life over eons of time, and that fascinates me and I'm excited with these new telescopes to get a greater sense of how that process has worked. And that personally feeds my, my faith, my sense of offer, how our universe has been endowed with what we need for for life and eventually the ability to have these kinds of conversations to exist and to think about our purpose and our existence and to contemplate on greater meaning. So that excites me and then much closer to home. I really am excited about observations within our solar system, I like the idea that we, with these new telescopes can also study details about planets and moons in our own solar system. And also that we're sending probes, you know, the the kind of space exploration that got me excited in astronomy in the first place. Where are these probes that humans have constructed and sent out to send back images of other planets and their moons in our solar system, I still think that's the the one of the greatest things humans have done and can do, if we put our heads together and do constructive international cooperations. And so I'm excited about probes that will go to places like Europa in our own solar system, in the coming years, that's an ice covered moon that we know has water ocean underneath, I'd like to know what what that water is like, you know, and there are missions that are already sampling the region around Jupiter, and have probed the environment of Saturn. These are things that excite me. And so I'm looking forward also to probe and telescope studies of our own solar system in the coming years. That's our own backyard. And we can learn a lot about even our own planet, by studying our sister planets in our own solar system. So those are the things I'm most excited about.
 
Zack Jackson 56:29
Do you think we're going to find life on Venus?
 
Jennifer Wiseman 56:33
Venus is harsh. Venus is is hot, and you know, really inhospitable to life as we know it. Now you can say, well, what if there's life, that's not as we know it? But, you know, we've all watched a lot of science fiction. But the trouble is, we have to know how to identify life, what is life? And so we have to start with what we know, which is life, even in the most extreme conditions on planet Earth. And, you know, what, what are they? The conditions, even the most extreme ones that in which life can thrive? There's a whole field called astrobiology right? Now, that's, that's a new field. But it's a very vibrant field where scientists are trying to understand what are the even the extreme conditions in which life can exist in our own planet Earth? And then, how would that translate to environments in space, either in interstellar space or on other planets or other star systems? And then how would we identify it as life? You know, that's really the tough question, especially if you can't go someplace physically, you can only observe remotely, how would you know that? That's that there's life there? That's a hard question in the field of astrobiology is trying to address all those questions. One of the things I like about astronomy right now is it's very interdisciplinary. It's not that you know, astronomy is separate from geology, which is separate from physics, which is separate from chemistry. No, all these things are being used together now, including biology to try to understand environments of other star systems and planets. And you know, how these conditions of stellar radiation and geology and atmospheres and chemistry work together and how that might affect even biology. So everything is very interdisciplinary now. And I just encourage people to get excited about space exploration, even if that's not your professional feel, there's so much you can learn and enjoy, even if it's not your occupation. By paying attention online, what's going on Hubble Space Telescope images are all freely available online, you can go to the website nasa.gov/hubble. And learn about it are also the galleries at Hubble site.org. And see any of these amazing images I've been talking about. The other telescopes that are large and space are on the ground also have magnificent websites with images. So you can learn a lot just by paying attention online. And I hope everybody also encourages young people to go into science fields or to realize that science is relevant to all walks of life, not just if you're thinking about becoming professional involved in space, but if you're thinking about just about anything, science is relevant to what you do. Science is relevant to our food to communications, to our health, to our exploration of oceans, and mountains, even on this planet, so I hope everybody takes a sense of time to just look around the natural world right around you. be appreciative of the wildlife and the trees and the natural world in a pretty Science as a way of studying that natural world but but keep a sense of wonder and awe. That's how I would encourage everyone to walk away from a program like this.
 
Zack Jackson 1:00:11
Well, thank you so much for that. Yeah. And
 
Ian Binns 1:00:13
I'll give a great ending.
 
Zack Jackson 1:00:14
I'll give a plug for we did an episode on on astrobiology back in January that you all should check out if you haven't had a chance to read Adams book. What is it living with tiny aliens? The image of God and the Anthropocene? Right, am I getting that subtitle? Right? He's not here. He's one of our CO hosts. He's not with us today to plug his own book. But thank you so much for the the wonder the all the inspirations hope. There's a lot to get excited about. Yeah, thank you.
 
Jennifer Wiseman 1:00:45
My pleasure. I'm glad you're interested in and I'm sure there'll be many more conversations to come have

Special Omicron Variant Update with Dr Daniel Janies

Episode 95
As much of the US is caught in the grips of yet another wave of COVID-19 infections from the Delta variant, a new, sinister sounding mutation has been making news. The Omicron Variant. What is it? Why is it noteworthy? How is it different from Delta? The answers may surprise you. Frequent guest and expert on the evolution and spread of pathogens, Dr Daniel Janies answers your questions about this new variant as we discuss unknown viral lineages, where this all is going, and what role white tailed deer may have in the future of this pandemic. 
 
Dr Daniel Janies is an American scientist who has made significant contributions in the field of evolutionary biology and on the development of tools for the study of evolution and spread of pathogens. He is The Carol Grotnes Belk Distinguished Professor of Bioinformatics and Genomics at University of North Carolina at Charlotte. He is involved with research for the United States Department of Defense, and has advised multiple instances of the government on methods for disease surveillance.
Colby T Ford, Denis Jacob Machado, Daniel A JaniesPredictions of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron Variant (B.1.1.529) Spike Protein Receptor-Binding Domain Structure and Neutralizing Antibody Interactions
 
Jacob Machado, D., White, R., Kofsky, J., & Janies, D. (2021). Fundamentals of genomic epidemiology, lessons learned from the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, and new directions. Antimicrobial Stewardship & Healthcare Epidemiology, 1(1), E60. doi:10.1017/ash.2021.222
 
 
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Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript 
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors. 
 
 
Ian Binns 00:06
So, today we are welcoming back up a frequent guest, our resident expert, all things COVID. He is the University North Carolina or is that UNC Charlotte with me, and he's the Carolina greatness, Belk Distinguished Professor of bioinformatics and genomics. And we are really excited to welcome back to the show, Dr. Daniel Janis. So thank you for joining us again, Dan, we're excited to have you as we are continuing to navigate all of this changing world of COVID. Yeah, thanks for having me. You know, we reached out to you right away of just, Hey, there's this new variant out there. And so we wanted to kind of pick your brain a little bit of what is the Omicron variant? I know, there's been other variants that have emerged, some that emerged that there was nothing about it and others like delta, but what is it about this one that raised concerns that you know, who classified it as something special, I can't remember their categorization but something a variant of concern? So what does that was that mean? Can you what can you tell us?
 
Dan Janies 01:06
What's interesting about Omicron is it contains 60 mutations with respect to Wuhan virus that emerged late 2019, in Delta contains 46. And what was interesting about Alpha through delta is that you could see them in in a lineage and, you know, nested set of mutations, building, and each one was, you know, incrementally more efficient than the other. What's different about Omicron is, we don't know where it came from. And it's not really in those lineages. And of those 60 mutations. 37 of them are in the spike protein, which is the protein that the virus uses to interact with human cells. So there's a lot of open questions with respect to those, especially those 37 mutations in the spike protein.
 
Ian Binns 02:04
So like, what, what kinds of questions I mean, what is it that when you saw this and your team and other teams around the world, I mean, what what kinds of things just popped in your head right away of what what you needed to study or questions you want to answer?
 
Dan Janies 02:17
The main thing is like, what did those mutations do to the conformation of the virus with respect to the antibodies that your body produces, after vaccination and or after infection, and in our early computational predictions, we predict that the antibodies produced by vaccination will be much less efficient in their ability to neutralize Omicron. need
 
Ian Binns 02:51
exactly what we want to hear.
 
Dan Janies 02:52
We've already seen this, you know, with with Delta, hence the, you know, the breakthrough in factions. And we, it's so it's, it's, it's more of the same, I mean, we expect more breakthrough infection. We don't know that much about transmissibility yet. What's interesting about Omicron is one of the key mutations that allowed delta to be so much more transmissible in outcompete previous variants is also in our con, but it's in a little bit different. It's in the same position, but a little bit different amino acid change. So the remains to be seen what that means, early data very early data out of South Africa, where this has been going on since mid November shows that Omicron is starting to outcompete Delta, but it's so early that epidemiological data will take some time to know to come in and numbers.
 
Zack Jackson 03:52
Is there any indication yet of how virulent it is? how dangerous it is?
 
Dan Janies 03:59
That the South African doctors are saying it's in the vaccinated, you know, they are seeing breakthrough infections, but they're mild cases, just like, you know, Delta, you know, sort of summer cold, so to speak, and hospitalizations, that data even lags, you know, even more, but hopple hospitalizations are not yet up for the unvaccinated. It couldn't be much more severe. We just, we just don't know.
 
Zack Jackson 04:24
Do you see that as the the eventual trajectory of COVID in general, is it going to go the way of becoming more transmissible but less deadly, so it just kind of settles in our population? Some
 
Dan Janies 04:36
people think that's the case. It's hard to predict how many more variants there are, since this one was not incremental, so to speak on the others in terms of its evolution, there might be a lot more space, you know, available for code to vary in that the problem is is that we have the tools now you know, least in the in the developed world. Anybody who wants to vaccination can, or two or three can get one. And B, we're not accepting it. So that leaves a pocket of people that delta, or Omicron, in this case, can use to infect and replicate itself and produce new variants. So that's a situation we really found ourselves in.
 
Ian Binns 05:20
If I, if I may, I'm just curious. I was something I heard the other day on, on someone else was speaking about this. And so I'm curious. The first SARS that was detected, you know, it spread but not wildly around the world like this. Right. And I know we talked in our original episode, we had you on the distinctions here between SARS cov. One SARS, cov. Two. But one of the things I think that the person said, and I can I can't remember the name right now, but what he said was, is that when a virus is more deadly, what that may be one reason why it doesn't spread so much is because orphan acts very quickly and kills a host quickly that doesn't have the opportunity to spread, like one that is not as deadly. Does that make sense?
 
Dan Janies 06:09
Yeah, yeah. So you're talking about SARS. cov. Oh, some people say SARS cov. One to distinguish it from SARS cov. Two, which we're experiencing now, there was only about 800 cases. And you know, it was much more deadly, but spread less efficiently leaving SARS cov. Two, and that's one of the things one of the Harbinger's of Delta's that it is out competing other viruses, because when it infects you, it's replicating itself so much faster, and it's getting out faster. And it's not causing symptoms as it's getting out of people as people are shedding it. And so people are even walking around more than spreading it more often. It's making so many more copies of it than its predecessors to.
 
Ian Binns 06:55
Okay, and so that's, that's what makes this one, just SARS, cov. Two in general, from the very beginning, there's one of the reasons why it spreads so quickly is because we don't know we have it in that, right. I mean, if we go back to
 
Dan Janies 07:08
ever ever more with very nervous. I mean, that's that was good. And
 
Ian Binns 07:11
now that's even more
 
Dan Janies 07:12
that was how Delta became so successful is was spreading, what SARS cov, two was spreading naysmith eyston, dramatically, Delta ramped it up.
 
Ian Binns 07:24
So another question we have for you, is, you know, if if Omicron does indeed show to be a model, milder variant of the virus, you know, with less risk, someone was curious, or, you know, we reached out to listeners, and what they were curious about is that, if that is the case, does it make sense for it to spread throughout the world largely unchecked, like just, this is kind of the whole some, you know, as you said, that there are is a pocket of the population, especially in the US, and the developed in the the world where we have easy access to vaccines, where people do not want to get it for whatever reason, the vaccination. And so is it someone have said, Oh, we should just let it go unchecked? And so I'm just curious, is there
 
Dan Janies 08:08
Yeah, that was tried in Sweden early on. And conditions are somewhat different there. They have a lot of people who live in their own house by themselves and things like that. But it was a regretted decision, because it was terrible for the for the elderly, you know, you can have most of the population get a cold, but the people that are vulnerable elderly, the immunocompromised people with other underlying conditions, your you're subjecting them to, you know, to a deadly disease in their case. So that was so those of
 
Ian Binns 08:44
us who can get vaccinated, it's good to do that. So that we slow the potential risk to others who are unable to get vaccinated. That's the whole point of vaccines in anyway. Right, is there are those who are unable to get vaccinated for whatever reason you're medically in any kind of vaccine. And so they rely on those of us who can't get vaccinated to do it so that they can.
 
Dan Janies 09:04
Yeah, I think it's an interesting choice in medicine, and that you're not only protecting yourself, but you're protecting those around you. And that, that's probably why No, the arguments hard to swallow for a lot of people.
 
Ian Binns 09:18
Right, right. Yeah.
 
Zack Jackson 09:20
I mean, if, if it came naturally, to care about your neighbor, then every religion in the world wouldn't have to make it their number one rule. It was just, they would just do it. But it turns out, it's really hard to convince people to think about other people's well being. Yeah, so it seems like we are, it seems like we're getting more variants like like we're just, we just work it up through Delta. I know out here, they're they're still talking about this delta wave. We've just hit the highest number in our in our county in the delta wave. And now we're talking about another variant. Is there an accelerating impact in this? And is that going to mean? Are we going to see more more quickly? Or is this going to make it harder to end this waking nightmare?
 
Dan Janies 10:15
We just don't know. And the big surprise of Aamir Khan was, it is so different looking. Most of its mutations are not shared by delta. And so, nor any other Coronavirus such that it really made us wonder several things about where it came from. And it's such a surprise, I can't answer your question. You know, maybe a month ago, I would have said something, you know, about the pace of variance. But this really throws a monkey wrench and all that.
 
Zack Jackson 10:55
Can you can you talk a little bit more about about that. Like how do we get something that is so far out in left field that doesn't that like a long lost cousin that we didn't get? So
 
Dan Janies 11:06
there is somebody SARS cov two, okay, so it's not short on the virus. There are several speculations. And I'll just preface this by saying there's, there's no data for any of these that I've seen, I'd like to see some data, but much like alpha, which was first called the UK variant. The speculation there was that immune compromised person had been affected with SARS cov two, and the infection sustained itself in their body and was not fought against by their body. And therefore SARS cov to cut can vary within the person. I heard the metaphor the other day, that situations like an evolutionary gym, where in which stars go v2 can try out, get stronger and try out new tricks. So and then it emerged from this hypothetical person. And then there was not much speculation after that for for alpha, and we saw the other variants becoming just, you know, incrementally better alpha, beta, gamma, delta. The interesting thing about Omicron is that it is not connected to any of these lineages evolutionarily deep, you know, very deep in the early emergence of SARS, cov do we can tell it SARS, cov, two and there that brought up other speculations that SARS cov to from people went into an animal animal population, use them as this, you know, metaphorical evolutionary gym and then reemerged into people. And this is not far fetched SARS, cov, two in the Netherlands, for example. And then Denmark, infected from humans, firing minx using the fair trade, and came back out into infect people. We know in the American Midwest, the stars, Kobe to somehow in whitetail deer. They're not farm, they're wild. But they're friendly, and then accustomed to people, especially in the American suburbs. So that is, still remains to be seen any connections there any evolutionary connections, and the third, which I think is more of a, you could say it's a third problem, or kind of an overarching problem, which there's some debate in the surveillance community is that we thought we were doing a great job, you know, sequencing the heck out of SARS, cov. Two cases, but maybe we're just not doing a very good job. And this thing was under the radar. It was first identified in Botswana in a aids lab, but then identified in mass in South Africa. But then, once people had the sequence to Qian and the Netherlands, they found a bunch of cases and travelers returning to Northern Europe, from South Africa. But then they went back into their on yet to be sequence samples. And they found they had early November, mid November cases. So as we go back, we might find more about this. And we just wrote a paper should be out soon, where we'll review that. There are many cases in many countries in the world where even though we're doing a tremendous job and sequencing cases, you can do a back of the envelope calculation that shows we're not doing enough to catch every variant. And so I think this latter scenario of just under surveying, it would be just a Herculean task to survey everything, but under surveying is going to produce these things and that could account For the animal reemergence case and can account for the, the immunocompromised case. So under surveying is a, I think a blanket explanation.
 
Zack Jackson 15:10
Yeah, I've heard that that was white tailed deer have it in such large numbers in the places for their testing, it was like 75%, or something I read, and that it doesn't, it doesn't kill them. And so it's like, it's like a little, a little playground for them. And if it comes back, and I when I saw that article pop up, that was the first time in the past few years, I felt legitimately hopeless, was on well, it doesn't matter how much we vaccinate if the white tailed deer population, which is all over my garden is is going to be carriers, then what hope do we have?
 
Ian Binns 15:49
Do you want to address that question, Dan? Or do we just I mean,
 
Zack Jackson 15:54
if there's no hope to be had,
 
Dan Janies 15:58
it's speculation when it was discovered in whitetail deer, and nobody was talking about Omicron. So I don't know if there's a real connection there. There's a there's a danger there always.
 
Ian Binns 16:08
So someone you know, another question that emerged for us was, you know, how does SARS cov to compare to other viruses in terms of how fast it mutates? And I'm sorry, I was looking off. So if this is related to what Zack already asked me, Is there a there's not a set speed or just happen?
 
Dan Janies 16:24
Yeah, it's it's, it's relatively slow. And the odd thing is SARS didn't SARS. cov two didn't really mutate until mid 2020. I thought sequencing would be quite boring. And then one mutation occurred. And people who pointed that out got quite famous. Because that mutation became fixed. And on subsequent SARS cov. Two cases, in then, we started to realize that mutations were building up. And this whole concept of variants really took off late 2020, early 2021. And then we realized, especially in the UK, that the variants were more efficient in their replication, and thus their transmission. And then it got really interesting to start sequencing variants, but it wasn't a fast process by any means us about comparing to influenza, which is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, but influenza does not only in its own right, evolve faster, but it's a different genome structure. SARS, cov. Two is just one very long genome. Whereas influenza has eight chromosome like segments to its genome. So those segments, when a person or an animal's co infected with two different lineages, they can reassort it's called, or its kin to shuffling a deck of cards and dealing out different poker hands. So it has not only the mutational avenue to change, but the reassortment Avenue and the we don't see that in SARS, cov. Two now, even though it's theoretically possible could recombine with, but it's not as able to be as it's not segmented, like informed roles.
 
Ian Binns 18:08
So with the mRNA technology that we have, with at least two of the vaccines that are approved in the US, at least, what can be done with those that technology, the mRNA vaccines to be able to handle this variant or future variants, especially ones that could potentially be much worse?
 
Dan Janies 18:28
Yeah. Well, the mRNA vaccines are, they can be just, you know, in essence reprinted and the main makers would like to argue that they can just reprint it and reformulate it and have it ready. I think Maderna said by March. So matter of months, the regulators probably want to some in would be wise to do you know, clinical trials before it's used. So, you know, it's really the vaccine productions, you know, almost immediate, but, you know, I think there's going to be a regulatory period as well, they did start to make reformulations of the mRNA vaccines for alpha and delta. But it turned out the vaccines that they that we had, you know, were already approved, or EUA, at least mergency youth authorization. were effective enough. And so the question is, where do you take on a whole new regulatory pathway versus you have something that's still really good? I mean, we're going to talk about going down in efficiency, I think, and in vaccine efficient efficacy, and for me in terms of Omicron and delta, but they're still wildly good. I mean, a flu vaccine some years is only 30% or 50% effective and, you know, nobody, nobody writes home about that. And so if we go from 96%, effective to 75%, effective for SARS, cov, two vaccines, even those directives against wild type Wuhan virus when applied to Delta, or Omicron, we're still, you know, in the black, so to speak, we're still doing pretty good, you know?
 
Ian Binns 20:09
Right. But they would have to if if something happened, and you know, a variant emerged, and, you know, the current vaccines we have, are not working very well, we need to make something needs to change. Obviously, they would need to go back through that clinical trials process.
 
Dan Janies 20:28
Again, right, just I believe so I believe they should. Yeah. Okay. I mean, there might be regulatory regimes around the world where they don't but
 
Ian Binns 20:35
okay. But it's still significantly faster than what anything we've had prior to these mRNA vaccines, like the process is still faster because of the technology that's available to us now,
 
Zack Jackson 20:46
is that at all possible to anticipate future mutations and create future proofed vaccines?
 
Dan Janies 20:54
Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. I think we're doing great as it is, but I think we could look at the number of possibilities for making a stable, you know, Spike protein and calculate those structures. And, and sort of anticipate the function of them, I think the latter part is the foreign part is easy, we can calculate out our structures, the understanding what they mean is a little harder than the understanding what they mean, you know, biochemically is a little harder, and then the understanding what they mean, epidemiologically is even harder. So, you know, we see this 30% reduction of 36 upwards of 36% reduction of efficiency against current antibodies by Omicron. But we don't know what that means yet, you know, in the real world, so. So, I mean, we could we could make computers run really hard, but it'd be hard to hard to translate that to the real world. That's a great idea, though. I think it's something we should strive for.
 
Zack Jackson 21:54
Now. I mean, that seems like it would be easier if the viruses were progressing incrementally, like you said, but with something like Omicron, that pops up out of the blue.
 
Dan Janies 22:04
Yeah, yeah. There are many ways to skin the cat when there might be a very large number of many ways to make an efficient to make an efficient SARS cov. To that, and we have not until Omicron thought that way. Now, we're, you know, when thinking that way for the last two weeks,
 
Zack Jackson 22:20
how do you? How are there multiple ways to skin cats? Isn't it
 
Ian Binns 22:26
wondering where that was? Come? Yeah, pull it off.
 
Dan Janies 22:30
I like the idea here.
 
Zack Jackson 22:34
Kendra's not here to defend cat giant,
 
Dan Janies 22:38
often the metaphor of a landscape is used. And so you have a hilly, imagine a landscape with many hills and the hills are optimal viruses, right. And it's, it's sometimes thought it's hard to go from one hill to another, you can kind of like go up the hill a little bit, you can go alpha, up to delta up the hill. And then when you're on the top, you're kind of stuck in one evolutionary space. But you got Omar Khan on this other hill over here. And so it's hard to imagine being less efficient to get more efficient. But what happens, I think, is that there's a set of contingencies, certain mutations happen that allow others to happen, and therefore evolutionary evolutionarily SARS, cov, two starts climbing a new Hill, so to speak. And there may be many hills of deficiency out there of evolutionary peaks. Okay,
 
Ian Binns 23:30
can we go back to the white that the deer situation? I mean, when we when you learn that emerged, or that it was detected in the deer population? What does that mean? Like for the human population and stuff? I mean, we talked about not really going away. So since it's not, doesn't appear to be deadly to that population. But is it easy for it to jump back to us from them? Or do we know?
 
Dan Janies 23:54
We don't know. And it's largely dismissed. I mean, the whole notion of zoonosis I think, in general is very important. We don't like to think of reverse zoonosis because we're clean and animals are dirty, but we're just another kind of animal, right? So we just see, we sometimes give bacteria and viruses to animals, and they're not being treated, but by and large, right, so the virus can live amongst them and evolve with them. And yeah, this is true influenza fun, fundamentally comes from birds. We know all these coronaviruses are many, you know, many of them, clinically important ones we're familiar with come from bats. And that's the idea of a reservoir that the virus is in the wild and ever so often infects people and then we pay attention to it.
 
Zack Jackson 24:40
That that will always stick with me from our first episode that you said the reason why these seem to come from bats, this goes back to have such great immune systems and nothing kills them. And they fly around viruses bounce around. Yeah, and fly around. What have you been thinking about in terms of this? This virus What's interesting to you?
 
Dan Janies 25:01
I really would like to know where it comes from. I mean, and I really think it's probably under sequencing and how much I'm wondering how much money and effort we're going to spend to deeply survey viruses. I'm not against it, but and we, you know, we can do it. It's just a matter of political Well, yeah, I'm wondering where the political will is gonna take us and a lot of these things, you know, the President's already said, we're not doing lockdowns. I thought that was the state's decision now. But I think this might be Yeah, might be a point where we're going to just decide to live with the pandemic. Unfortunately,
 
Zack Jackson 25:38
it does seem that way. It does seem like I looked at cases the other day was like, wow, this is nearly the highest single day that we've ever had. And it looks like it did three years ago when I walk into Target. Yeah. And see, I was just talking with a member of my church who is forget her official title, I'm sorry, Amanda. But she's a big wig in the emergency department of the local hospital and asked her how things are going. And she said, it's, it's heartbreaking, Nick, they're, they've lost like 60% of their staff, and the outside world is acting as if nothing is happening inside. And so all these health care professionals are like, they're completely burnt out. And they've lost their faith in humanity. And they're just, they're done. And it seems like Alright, so this is the new normal, we're just going to normalize dying. And
 
Dan Janies 26:37
yeah, so we can't, we can't live with very Chris, we, you know, we can't make doctors and nurses very fast. That's a lot of training. And it takes the right kind of person. And so maybe that's the response to this, we're just going to live with it. Because we know, we have to have doctors, nurses, and everybody who makes hospitals wrong. So imagine all the ancillary effects. People are not getting their cancer screens not getting their teeth fixed or not getting their surgeries, if the hospitals full well, healthcare effects are going to be tremendous. We have a study here on campus of the adherence to prep treatment for HIV. And we've seen that gone down in in the COVID period as well.
 
Ian Binns 27:29
I remember when delta started taking off, you know, we used to live in Louisiana, and there was a hospital system down there in Baton Rouge that talked about that the chief medical officer actually said that because the numbers were so out of control there, that they talked about, that we something along the lines of that they were no longer an efficient system or something along those lines. Because their numbers, they were so overwhelmed. That it they were trying to make it clear to people who are unwilling to get vaccinated prior to the emergence of delta, that the even things his car accidents and stuff like that, that they would not be able to be seen, because they were just that overwhelmed. And trying to send the message home to those who were adamantly opposed to vaccinations that the only reason why this is happening because you're not getting vaccinated. Right. And so that's what they were trying to bring home.
 
Dan Janies 28:25
Yeah, pre COVID. There was already a crisis in rural America, small hospitals were closing in, in, in towns that were not being near big cities. Right. So don't, don't get drawn to me don't get hurt in the country, that's for sure.
 
Ian Binns 28:42
Yeah. Which was this I remember when that happened with the when delta emerged, and it really took off, and I was here. And then I just kept looking at, you know, my wife and just kind of saying that this is the US like, you don't think of stuff like that. That's not supposed to happen the United States of America, right. And but as you just said, pretty COVID rural hospitals were shutting down and medical care and stuff. But everyone always talks about, you know, we're the greatest and we have all the best medical care and blah, blah, blah, but then we're turning people away, like doctors, which I'm aware that that's not the case. But you know, it just was it was tough to hear, again, to be reminded of the fact that this is not over.
 
Zack Jackson 29:24
Wealthy people and propagandists say that we have the best health care system in the world. But right. I think most folks would disagree with that. Yeah.
 
Ian Binns 29:34
But it's just an interesting perspective being shared. And to hear again, you know, chief medical officer saying, we don't have the ability to care for you right now. Yeah, it was very eye opening.
 
Zack Jackson 29:46
So if you want to give your give your local healthcare provider, a merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, or Kwanzaa, whatever they celebrate by getting vaccinated. Yeah.
 
Ian Binns 29:59
When I remember Dan You and I were part of a panel. And it's still funny to think of this. I think it was like February of 2020. Near the end of February and as before things really took off. Yeah. So we know lock downs were in place yet and compared to now very few cases were in the US that we knew of at the time. And we kind of talked about in that panel about, you know, and, and people were asking about, you know, if this gets out of control here in the US, what about lockdowns, all that kind of stuff? We just kind of kept talking about the acceptable level of loss. Like, you know, and then I remember you pulled up a slide talking about the number of flu deaths every year. Yeah. That we were having time. And so we just, that was considered an acceptable level of loss by society, not, you know, into an individual person, obviously. But it sounds like that may be where some are trying to go. Like, you see some just saying, I'm done. I'm not, ma'am. This is over for me.
 
Dan Janies 30:56
Yeah, I don't think it by design. And I don't think those that's why I showed those slides. And, you know, I don't think people really consider fluid deadly disease, but it is if you're, if the wrong underlying conditions, you know, so now we've got another one that, you know, before we especially before we had the tools, there is some right side, we do have tools now for we've had, you know, influenza vaccines and antivirals now we're getting to the stage where we have, you know, better vaccines than we did for influenza for, you know, for SARS, cov. Two, and there are some new antivirals. I think that will probably be some bright side and the gloomy picture we've been painting that even unvaccinated people can take a regime of these antivirals and less than their illness. Okay, I'm sorry, infection.
 
Zack Jackson 31:49
Yeah. So thank you so much.
 
Ian Binns 31:53
Yeah. Thanks. Is there anything else you want to share with us? Based on what you guys you and your teams have been studying the past couple weeks? Um,
 
Dan Janies 32:01
yeah, I'll send you the I'll send you the paper. One is we we, we predicted the, you know, even though we surveillance looks Herculean right. Now that it's not, we wrote that. And, you know, we predicted time will tell the clinic, but we predict now that vaccines will be less efficient against Aamir Khan than the previous version. So we'll see.
 
Ian Binns 32:28
Okay. And we can link to that in the show notes. Yeah, be great. All right. Well, thanks, Dan. I appreciate you.
 
Dan Janies 32:35
Thanks. Thanks for talking again.

Mental Health Part 5 (Traumatic Brain Injury)

Episode 93
In part 5 of our mental health miniseries, we're talking about what makes us who we are. If our brain is the center of our personalities and identities, what happens when our brains get broken? Rachael tells us the curious story of Phineas Gage as well as her own experience with traumatic brain injury. Along the way, we will talk about split brains, manipulative microbiomes, and hungry ghosts. 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript 
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
 
 
Zack Jackson  00:05
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are
 
Ian Binns  00:14
Ian Binns Associate Professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte, in my favorite brain character is crying from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
 
Zack Jackson  00:27
Zack Jackson UCC pastor in Reading Pennsylvania and my favorite cartoon brain character is the brain from Arthur
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  00:36
Kendra Holt-Moore, assistant professor of religion at Bethany College in Lindsborg Kansas. And my favorite brain is the brain in those comics, I think they're like from PhD comics or something, but it's like a brain and a heart that are always talking. And the hearts like, I'm gonna go catch a butterfly and the brains like no, we need to work.
 
Rachael Jackson  01:06
Rachael Jackson, Rabbi at Agoudas, Israel, congregation Hendersonville, North Carolina, and my favorite cartoon brain, brain from pink in the brain, especially their line. What are we going to do tonight? The same thing we do every night Pinky try to take over the world. I use that when anyone in my family asks, What are we going to do? Because it turns out, they never actually take over the world. And this is for all y'all that watch this TV show in the 1990s kids WV in
 
Zack Jackson  01:44
the late 1900s.
 
Rachael Jackson  01:48
So if you have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm sure you can find it somewhere. But I haven't looked yet. So pinky in the brain is awesome, because they're going to take over the world. But they never end up taking over the world. Because, well, the laboratory mice. So why are we asking this question? Why did we want to talk about our favorite brain characters. And that's because today I want to start us by talking about our actual brains. As much as we might enjoy the comics are cartoons of brains and the way that we anthropomorphize and frankly, anthropomorphize them, they are just a part of our bodies, like every other part of our bodies, except not at all, like every other part of our bodies, because they can troll the rest of our bodies. And we might have this inclination to think that our brains have, again, like the rest of our bodies, oh, well, if something happens to it, you know, me, you put it in a cast, right, you break out, you break a bone, you set it, you get a scrape, or cut, you sew it up. But what happens when your brain matter gets damaged, it also can bruise, it also can shrink and get cuts, it also has the ability to suffer physical damage. And one of the biggest things that happens when that when the brain itself is damaged, is that our personalities can change. Our emotions can change, which is why I really love what Kendra brought in as her example, that it's the heart and the brain, these comics, that for so long in our American culture, the emotions are kept in the heart. And the rational thought is kept in the brain. But we really know that that's not at all true. The heart has no emotions, the heart pumps blood and receives blood and recycles blood like it's that's all it does. Not that that's an all like
 
Zack Jackson  04:11
if there's any hearts out there, listen kind of sorry.
 
Rachael Jackson  04:15
I apologize if I hurt your feelings heart. But hearts don't have feelings. Right? Our feelings are all in our brains. Our personalities are all in our brains. And we forget that. And I want to bring in one of the most famous medical stories, people that they really started to understand this. So this was 19th century or so mid 19th century, and prior to this point, they had no idea where our personalities really came from and how they were formed. There's a whole lot of well, the shape of your skull dictates How Your personality is? Well, that's weird. Case. In case that needs to be said. I mean, it's almost it's almost as backwards as The Little Mermaid cartoon, right? The show or the movie, excuse me, The Little Mermaid. And the seagull goes up to the prince. And they say, Is he alive? And what does he do? The Seagull puts the ear to the man's foot. Oh, yeah, he's right. It's like, what that's really, that's not how your body works. And we know that and we can laugh at that. Because that's how absurd it is. Well, a couple 100 years ago, they didn't know how our personalities worked at all. So by saying, Well, it's the shape of your head that dictates your personality. Okay? Why not? We have these ideas that maybe again, prior to this, and to this day, maybe it's when you were born, that dictates your personality, right? We all it for a lot of people. It's it's mostly used as a funny thing, and less deeply integrated into who they are like, what's your sign? Right? Well, I'm a Pisces, oh, well, if you're a Pisces, and these planets were rising, that means your personality is xy and z. And for some, there's a lot of truth in that. And for others, it's just a way of connecting and be like, Oh, that's when my birthday is to how fun that we still don't know exactly how our personality works unless you're in that field. So going back to the mid 19th century, there is a person who's named is Phineas Gage Pei, or, excuse me, pah is how you start his name, Phineas Gage. And he is, well, the typical youth of the 19th century blue collar worker. And he's working hard, working hard. And he finally says, I'm going to get a good job. And he gets a good job building the railroad. right way back when when we needed railroads to move us from one side to another part of the country. And so here he is a strapping man because frankly, in order to you know, lay railroad ties and put this stuff in, you have to be physically fit. And people around him, his friends and letters and stuff, his own notes, said, you know, had some fun, kind, reverence, upstanding, you know, still rapidly Strapping Young Lad. And so he gets promoted through the railroad. And now he's the manager, and he's, you know, like 2324 years old, and he's the manager of this railroad. And what they did back then is you don't just lay the railroad ties and, and hammer them in, you actually have to make space for the railroad, right, the ground has to be flat, the ground has to be ready. And if you're going over a mountain pass, or or a molehill or something, like you have to actually make the ground ready. And the way they did that is with explosives. So what they do is they basically dig a hole, and they put some gunpowder or TNT or something like that inside the hole, you know, a couple of meter or so down. And they pack it in. And they use a tamping iron to tap it in, right, basically, and this thing is usually four inches in diameter, and about a meter or three feet long, right? This is this is a big thing. This is not a small, small stick. So as the manager Phineas Gage is tamping this stuff in and because he was so well liked, he's talking his other people. His mouth is open, and it precisely at that moment with his mouth open, it goes off it this explosive explodes, and it's such a forceful explosion. And his mouth is open that the tamping iron goes through his mouth exits his skull and lands several dozen feet away Thank you, Zach. Yes,
 
Ian Binns  09:41
that's yeah, so I'm sorry. I just I know you're talking sorry. You're good. Yeah, that was the part that I kept trying to figure out so it did exit his called they did not have to take it out.
 
09:52
No, no, it exit it like okay, it was
 
Ian Binns  09:56
Did it get stuck in there and then yeah, okay.
 
Rachael Jackson  09:59
No, no which is great. Yeah, but it didn't get stuck in there. Yeah, and so we're gonna, of course, put pictures and Wikipedia pages and medical journals, we're gonna put stuff like that in our show notes. Tangential aside, parenthetical aside, if I can remember to send them to Zach, so hopefully there'll be there. Anyway, so it exits his skull, and pupa. And he's still alive, and he's still breathing. And he's still walking. And people are like, Oh, my God, what do we do? Literally, this guy's head, like, his skull blew off?
 
Zack Jackson  10:40
What do we do?
 
Rachael Jackson  10:42
And so they take him to to his doctor, right? This is your just, it's just your run of the mill PCP. I don't know about you guys. But I don't think my PCP could handle this. So he goes to his PCP and the guy goes, okay, okay. Let's keep him alive. So we keep them alive. And they recognize, well, there is no skull fragment, so they can't capture the bone, they can't put the bone back, and his brain starts to swell. And it bleeds and so that's their number one, that's their number one focus is to stop the bleeding. Right? Because if you just bleed to death, well, there's nothing else to do. So if you're really interested in the medical part of this, again, I'll link I'll link the journal article that talks about it. So on and on, he recovers it takes about six weeks for like for him to recover to the point where he can be awake, right? So this is a long recovery in being awake. Right? It's it's very much a traumatic injury. But it happened in his brain. And he wakes up, and he really starts physically getting better, right? His his blood supply has returned back to normal. He's able to sit and eat and converse. And what people notice is that he's mean, and he's vulgar. And he says irreverent things all the time. And they have no idea what happened. So Phineas Gage, changed. And the doctor noticed this, too. And one of the lines from the doctor's report says, He is fitful, irreverent, indulging at time and the grossest profanity, which was not his previous custom, manifesting but little deference for his fellows. This doesn't sound like the same person. And so they're really trying to figure out what happens. And so Phineas Gage to end his story that is, Phineas Gage lives for another decade, decade and a half. And at one point, he goes to Chile as a long haul, or long distance stagecoach. And the long distance stagecoach, according to their job description required the driver to be reliable, resourceful, and possess great endurance. And above all, they had to have the kind of personality that enabled them to get on well with their passengers. Fascinating, also, not a job Island. No 19th century drive in the hills long distance of Chile. Hmm. So this was a job that he took. And then he started to feel ill and he went back to live with his mom who was at that point living in San Francisco, and he started to have major seizures. And he died before he was about 40. So sort of ends his life. His life story that is, but I bring this bring this stage coach piece, because that doesn't quite match what his doctor wrote that he was irreverent and spewing profanities. And remember, this is at a time in our American puritanical society that was like, oh, no, we can't say profanities. That's only for the bad people. We've changed our culture since then.
 
Zack Jackson  14:23
Yeah. That least Whoa. This is Kellyanne.
 
Ian Binns  14:31
You can bleep that out. Right? Don't Don't take it out, believe it, because I think it's perfect timing. Sounds good. Thank you.
 
Rachael Jackson  14:40
So here we have a person who has changed. And the best understanding at that point was that his brain injury caused him to be a different person. And we now recognize that our medical science that that is completely true. that our personalities reside in the mush that is contained in our skulls. And if something happens to that mush, it's very soft material, if something happens to it, it can affect who we are. And that can be quite disturbing. And like as not even for a person going through it, but can you imagine, I can just say to you, right, I can say to Kendra, Kendra, you don't, you're not who you think you are. And that at any moment, if I cut off a slide of your slice of your brain, you're going to be a different person. And that kind of shakes our foundation of one of the things that we believe in our life to be in to be permanent, right, so much of our life is filled with impermanence, that we think well, at least who I am, unless I willingly change it unless I have the control to change who I am. And that control is part of my personality. Then it then I am who I am. And, and it goes, this is showing that it's not. And that can be disconcerting, especially when there are so very many medical diseases and challenges that affect the brain throughout life. One of the most common ones that we see in our society is dementia. Not just Alzheimer's, but dementia as a whole category of different of different illnesses that affect the brain. And I highly suggest if there's anyone in your family, if there's anyone that you work with, if these are patients that you care for, if you somehow engage with anyone that is in the population of those who have dementia, there's this book called the gems and the gems and dementia, a guidebook for care partners. And what it does is it walks a person through stages of dementia, and rest six stages of dementia. And it helps them recognize helps us recognize what a person might be going through, I'm not going to read you all six of them. But the titles are sapphire, diamond, emerald, Amber, Ruby, and ending with pearl. And what happens is in each of these different places, so let me let me read one of these to you. And this is the diamond, this is the second stage. And it sort of says cognitive characteristics. A person gets rigid, but does the best and does best with established routines and rituals can really do well at times, they can shine. And so it seems planned or on purpose. They can be hurtful or say mean things without seeming to notice or care. They talk and worry a lot about cost money and expenses. Different people will see them differently. Like we do diamonds and different facets, they can't seem to get it at times or won't let it go. Some family members are not sure if it's dementia versus just being mean stubborn, and forgetful. Dementia is really a brain disease. It's something that physically affects the physical mush of the brain. Now, I'm not a neuroscientist, I'm not a neuro surgeon. I'm not, I don't even play one on TV. So I cannot explain what's happening in those. But I trust those that do know what they're talking about. So I'm going to pause here and see if there's questions or reactions to the story and what I've just shared and then I'll move us into a slightly different direction.
 
Ian Binns  19:23
So I've always found that, you know, prior to you sharing the link for that story, Phineas Gage you know, I've read it somewhere else before and was just so fascinated by it for multiple reasons. Obviously, the fact that he survived for so light, right? I mean, it's like, holy, sorry, there we go again. Good things not 1850s Right. So but uh, the other thing too is, you know, how much that accident advanced doctors at the time advanced their own understandings of the brain and led to like the development of different types of medical fields and scientific fields because of that accident. Okay, I just find that so fascinating. And, yeah, again, it's just it's, it's just insane to me that he survived that, and then what they're able to do with it?
 
Rachael Jackson  20:22
No, thank you for that. I mean, and I love that you said that it that they learned from that this story. It happened in the 19th century is still in modern day textbooks and modern day classes. So my dad went to medical school starting in what year was that? 1998. And he learned a Phineas Gage in medical school. Right. I mean, there's, there's a reason that this person is so well known because of how he changed the understanding of what our brains are and what our personalities are. I hope I didn't cut you off there. Yeah.
 
Ian Binns  21:02
No, not at all. It's again, it's just, it's really interesting. You know, that again, he survived what, how at advanced the medical community in the medical field. And then yesterday, when in preparing for today's recording, looking at some of the notes and things like that, that were written by the doctors, you know, that we have those those notes in their description of what was going on in the brain. You know, what they were able to witness of, like, some of these descriptions, or was it of like, you know, parts of brain matter coming out of the top of his head and stuff. I'm sitting there like, oh, my gosh, like Jess, who? That was, I was cringing while Reading it. It just like that just now I see why not doctor? medical doctor. Dr. Binns? That's right, that's right. Yeah,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  22:02
the thing that this story of Phineas Gage, and just the conversation about, like brain injury and personality, it reminds me of something that I learned, I think I learned about this when I was maybe at the end of my master's degree, or like, early PhD student and I went to some conference, but I, it was like, a conversation about the microbiome. And it was one of the first times or maybe the first time that I had heard someone talk about how there are neurons in our stomachs. And so it just is always really interesting, when, like, we talk about, like this topic of, it's really like a question about, you know, Who Who are we and, you know, how much do we are we sort of prone to just like, the impermanence of whatever happens to our bodies changes our experience of the world, but we like, have this idea of self, that, at least in like, a lot of cultures is, you know, in the brain, and for other people, it's maybe more in the heart, but there's also the gut, or like that, that, you know, we talk about, like our gut telling us what to do, or, you know, the, that feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when something is, you know, happening that you are unsure about, like, it's just, it's this other part of our physical experience that, you know, is also an option for how we like identify, like, the core of our self. And that's really interesting. And also just interesting to, like, bring in, I think, the, like medical, there's, I mean, I'm not a biologist, but I love like listening to and talking about the microbiome and that, like, just our relationship to our bodies, is not just a relationship to a body, its relationship to like, these, like millions of teeny tiny little things like micro organisms that help make up our body. And it's, you know, there's a plurality built into ourselves that we're not always like, aware of, but like, what does that mean in terms of selfhood, and personhood and personality and the way that we relate to people and love people and, you know, show respect and all these other like bigger questions about personhood, and they just become more interesting questions when you consider, like, the complexity of like the body itself, whether we're talking about the brain or, you know, those neurons in our guts, our gut brain, it's all just really cool. You know,
 
Zack Jackson  24:57
that's why it's so hard to give up junk food. is when you have eaten a lot of junk food you have selectively bred in microbiome that that thrives off of that junk food. And that mic, those little microbes, then release chemicals into your blood, which tells your brain to get more of that junk food. And so your microbiome wants a certain kind of food, which you have selectively bred by your choices, and then your cravings, that you think this is my favorite food, because I love it. But it's really your favorite food, because all of the microorganisms that live in your belly love it, and you're just its host. And it's, it's telling you, they're telling you what you think that you actually like, but it's really just them.
 
Rachael Jackson  25:42
But you're the ones that did selectively put them there, maybe they're the brains, you have the ability to change, or maybe they were always there. Right. And so maybe some people don't have
 
Zack Jackson  25:52
much of your microbiome, from their mother, during the birthing process, when you are a blank slate, and those microbes can get in there and set up shop. And then yeah, you can you can take swabs of people, and you can tell who their mother is by the specific fingerprint of the microbiome we got. Yeah, it's crazy to think that we are, in many ways, like a mech suit for a whole host of, of microbes, more so than we are an independent person that just so happens to have a bunch of microbes that eat our food. Now, we are a universe in and of ourselves. I like that.
 
Rachael Jackson  26:34
We tend to be so narcissistic into thinking that we are who we are. And we have complete control over this body that we inhabit. When the reality is far more complex than that. Right? Like you were just saying, right? How much control do we have over these things in our gut, especially when they're really imprinted? Like fingerprints, right? When they're imprinted in such a way that we can identify family lineage, right, which you have very little control over who your parents are. In fact, you have zero control over who your parents are. But we but we have this, this deep need to know that. And one of the hard parts is if we have that need for ourselves, do we not also have this need for other people in our lives? When we meet with a person, we go, Oh, I really like this person, we can be friends. And then you become friends. And then that person changes. Are you still friends with them? Does it matter how or why they changed if it was by choice or by happenstance? So I want to share a slightly personal story with us. In I'm actually forgetting what year this was. It must have been 2008. to that. Yeah, I think it was 2008 Is that the election was 2008. And Obama took office in January of oh nine. So this happened Christmas Day. 2008. So I'm 27. I'm 27 years old. And I just go up on a ski hill. I've skied before, but it's not a hobby, right? It's just something like, Oh, I've done it once or twice. I know, you know, I know that. If you want to slow down, you make a wedge. And if you want to speed up, you put your feet together and you know, go side to side. Cute little things like that. I wasn't being ridiculous. I was just staying on the green slopes. I was I was with my best friend at the time, who later became my husband. And I go on my second green run and I'm with his mom, and all the guys are off doing like black diamonds and something like Oh my God, I don't even know how people can do that. And my second run, it's Christmas time, and I fall. And I don't just like oops, hee hee hee. I fell on my tokus wasn't that funny? I'm a little embarrassed. i fall i garage sale, I fall down the mountain and the everything's on the yard, right? That sort of concept of the garage sale, like everything in my pockets. Like everything is off. Now, I knew I was going to do a green. So I didn't wear a helmet. Was that smart? I don't know. Maybe? I don't know. They didn't. This was again 2008. This was up in Colorado. They didn't necessarily offer how much to people that are just having this cute little fun time on a green slope. I don't know what to tell the person you just really have to ask a person that knows how to ski from now on like it's my suggestion that you wear a helmet because why not? You wear a helmet when you ride a bike and you go just As fast on skis as you do a bike, so that's my suggestion. I was not wearing one and I didn't even occur to me that I should have been wearing when one of my skis did not pop off like they are supposed to. And it just like twisted my leg as it was, as I was literally falling down the mountain. And so it stayed on and I had this massively strained and sprained ankle, so I couldn't walk. But as I'm falling, and I, I have this very distinct moment, where here a crack, like an actual crack, and then I, I'm laying there, and it's a beautiful day, so I'm laying in the snow looking at this blue sky, bright light. And, and I run my tongue around my teeth, because I thought the crack was my teeth breaking. And I was really scared that I was like, Oh, my God, teeth are so expensive, kid you not. That's what my thought was. Yeah, I was like, I broke my teeth and teeth are expensive. didn't occur to me, that I broke my brain didn't occur to me that I broke my neck did not occur to me. And then I was stupid. Because I was not thinking, like, I literally wasn't thinking and I was stupid. And I said, Sure, I can go on another run. And I somehow work through the pain of my ankle, went down the mountain, got back up on the chairlift started down again. And then I went, I'm getting dizzy, I think I need to lay down. And I just lay down in the snow. And my eyes were doing this weird thing. And it's like I couldn't see and they were just going so fast. This is a stress story. Imagine living it
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  31:58
gone, don't worry. Yeah, that's what's helping you live.
 
Ian Binns  32:04
So I live
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  32:06
spoiler alert, I
 
Rachael Jackson  32:06
don't die. And then then they call the rescue, right? They call the rescue the ski squad or whatever they're called. Because I still am in the middle of the mountain and I have to get down. And they take me to like a little cab out and they have a heart or something. And they brace my neck and they put me on a stretcher, so they can take me down. And I'm only told this I don't remember this. At this point, I have completely lost the ability of consciousness. I am a conscious, but I don't actually know that I'm conscious at this point. And so these guys are strapping me into the board. And I asked one of them for a kiss. Is everything okay? I was like, Well, you could you could kiss me. Like, okay, oh, glad to know that I said that. I've never been that forward in my life. So interesting that I would have chosen that ailment. Yeah. And then I'm taken down the ski, I'm taken down the ski hill, and they do a quick X ray and they go, Yeah, you're broken, like we can't fix you. And so they have to send me to a large hospital, which is about an hour away. And so they take me to the large hospital. And they see that I've broken part of my CFR and I have a severe concussion and they keep me in the hospital for about a week. And then I go home, and I can't walk because of my leg, my ankle. And I can't turn my head because of my my neck issue. And far more distressing, was I can't think I couldn't think. And one of the exercises that I was told to do that an occupational therapist or I was someone like that I had so many different therapists, physical, occupational and speech. And I can't remember exactly who told me this. But my task was to make a grilled cheese sandwich. Mind you, I am 27 almost 28 years old. I am a chemist. I know I've lived alone like a grilled cheese sandwich. Are you kidding me? Turns out, I couldn't. I couldn't make a grilled cheese sandwich. I didn't know the order to put Oh right. You got to butter the bread. And you have to put the butter side down and you have to get out the right pan and then you put the cheese on and you have to flip it and I didn't know how to make a grilled cheese sandwich. And I sat my pantry and cried. There was one time when I didn't have a walk in pantry. I just had like a large like it was a bifold door that then had three shelves on either side so you could walk I guess it's a walk But like you couldn't turn around, really. And I walked in, and I couldn't find my way out.
 
35:06
I didn't know how to get out of my battery that literally, like, that made no sense.
 
Rachael Jackson  35:13
And I lost the ability to really understand math, I lost the ability to know how to play the piano. I learned Hebrew the year before, couldn't recognize a single letter after this. And to this day, language is still extremely hard for me. Now, people that know me now would have no idea that I had this. People that knew me then would go, Wow, you're really different. I have high I have extremely heightened anxiety that I never had before. Like ever. I was not an anxious person, I was a stubborn, I was shy, I was lots of other things. But I wasn't anxious. And now I have, I have quite a diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder. And so this, this Phineas Gage story really resonates with me. And I think one of the things that we as people who are with others, and this for me is where I bring in the religious piece to so many of us have religious communities, that when we're in them, we may not know why a person has changed. And it's our obligation. And I mean that word intentionally, to care for them. We don't have to be their best friends, we don't have to, to be there those ways. And if someone is abusing you, verbally abusing you, you don't have to stay in that situation. Right? Because people can get very mean, I definitely had a mean streak. While my brain was trying to figure itself out. One of my therapists called it, I had to defrag my brain. And I love that like computers. So I just defrag my brain. And then I got much better and so took about a year before before I became who I am now, but who I am now is different than who I was. So I just want to add that to our to our story. And I'm not a unique case, and I am 100% Lucky. Right? It is a it's a scary situation. And frankly, I still went to rabbinical school after that fact. So I my traumatic brain injury had a had a happy ending. Very much so. But not everyone's does. And so I think if we share our compassion and recognize this idea of myths, LM Elohim that we're all made in the image of God. And I don't believe in a God that is static. I believe in a God that is dynamic. So too, are we dynamic. So questions, reactions, etc.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  38:14
I think my reaction is just a fish. Again, agape facial expression. And glad that you're with us, Rachel, that's crazy, too.
 
Zack Jackson  38:31
It reminds me of the split brain surgeries. Have you heard of these? Yes, yeah, we don't do these anymore. And so there's, there's only a small amount of research done into it. We're basically for a period of time. Some doctors were treating people with recurring seizures that were just really bad. They were treating them by severing through the corpus callosum, which is the connecting point between the two hemispheres of the brain. And it seemed to really work. Now that's, that's significant brain damage, is what that is, but it stopped the seizures and increased the quality of life. And then what they found the some of the people who had this done, started to act very strangely, in that the two halves of their bodies were not acting together anymore. Yeah. And so there were stories of like, a guy would reach into his into his closet to pick something out and his other hand would pick something else out. There was one, one guy where like, one hand was, would like hit him, while the other one had to like restrain it. There was, I think, my favorite case and this is so they're starting to see that the it seemed almost like for some people. There were two different personalities in their brain now that we're at work. Before they were working together, now they were working separately trying to control the body at the same time. But the left hemisphere of the brain is where most of your language centers are localized. And so the right hemisphere of your brain is effectively mute, and is unable to speak, but is able to have different thoughts. And but it can't speak anymore. And so there was one person who they refer to as P S. And they were able to using scrabble tiles, and moving them around with each different hand, and like blocking, putting something in between their eyes so that they can't see what the other hand is doing. And only one eye can see one and one can see the other real, confusing, convoluted thing. They asked this person who are you, and both hands spelled out, Paul. And then they asked him, What is your desired occupation and the left hand, which, which would be controlled by the right part of the brain, the more artistic impulsive side or whatever, spelled out racecar driver. And the other hand, which was controlled by the more rational one spelled out draughtsmen, which is a much more down to earth sort of occupation, right. And it was like, there were two different ambitions, two different brains, there was one that was more rational and down to earth, and there was one that was more impulsive and excited, and their ability to communicate with each other was severed, but in some ways, it gave the right brain some more freedom to interact, because now it wasn't, it could communicate now, without being overpowered by the left side of the brain. And, again, we don't do this anymore. So we only have this like, select number of patients. But it seems like maybe we are not the unified to being that we imagine ourselves to be. That even within our own brain, there is a multitude of consciousnesses that are in concert that are that are, you know, creating a sort of Mosaic personality. But that are not the same. And I think about, about in, like Rome, in Romans, the book of Romans, Paul says, I always I seem to always do what I don't want to do, and the things that I want to do, for some reason I can't do. And I am always at war with myself. And I think we can all kind of relate to this feeling of like, I have these higher ideals. And for some reason, I cannot do them. And I always seem to revert down to this other thing that I don't want to do. And like how would that conversation about our personality, our spirituality, our higher ideals or morality change, if we imagined ourselves not as, like one person being, you know, impacted from without, as much as it is multiple persons, within ourselves a multitude of people who are working in concert together to make what we feel is the best decision for our collective selves. If we start to see ourselves as a universe instead of as an individual, like, what, what kind of a difference would that make for how much grace we're willing to give ourselves or complexity we're willing to offer to others?
 
Rachael Jackson  43:28
That's beautiful. I just finished Reading. So I'm sort of listening to what you're saying there, Zach. I just finished Reading a book called When Breath Becomes Air Are any of you familiar with Yes? So it's Paul calling our colony the colony Yeah, certainly colony, the colony, k a la a nit Hi, When Breath Becomes Air. It is a hard read. It came out just about six years ago, January of 16. A by an autobiography of a neuro surgeon who develops metastatic lung cancer, I'm not spoiling anything. He tells you that in the first chapter one of his lines that has stuck with me the whole book is like if you if you highlight in your books, and you're like oh, I just want to highlight really powerful and important passages your highlighting this whole book was he was doing a brain surgery on a person that's awake, right and that's necessary so that you know what's happening. Is that amazing that we have all these surgeries, right? We have all of these surgeries are like put me deep asleep. And these ones, they want to make sure you're awake, because they're going into your brain and they'll change and one time he's telling the story where he He's doing something, he puts some sort of thin electrode in. And the person says, I'm sad. I'm so sad. And then Paul takes it out politics electrode out, and the person goes, Oh, that's better. And so he does it again, because this is right around the area of a tumor or something like he needs to be in this area for reason. He wasn't just being like, Hey, what's this do to be in this area,
 
Ian Binns  45:28
we should be interested. Right, just like poking it with a stick, and
 
Rachael Jackson  45:33
he goes, and then the patient again goes, everything is just so sad. And then he pulls back a millimeter, a millimeter, I sick. I'm no longer sad, right? That's how fragile and that's, that's where we give people so much grace, a millimeter, right? Tiny little percentage, no room for air. So if you get jostled, perhaps that millimeter got shaken up. And that's why you're really sad today. And the world feels like it's really sad today. That we have this ability to give people grace. And I think that's one of the best things that we can give them, compassion or humbleness, right, that we can not even understand where they're coming from, but just understand that, that they're going through something, whatever it might be, and then we can be there for them. I don't have a I don't have a nice little bow.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  46:38
That story that that book though is like, it is amazing. I around the room Reading it crying by myself. Basically,
 
Rachael Jackson  46:50
I just bought it. Yeah, if you need a cry, like almost as a cry if you need to think about death. And think about what is your purpose in life? What is the value of living and what is not to be scared about death? I'm it's just, it's an incredible book. Absolutely incredible. And then his wife wrote sort of an afterword a couple of chapters to sort of sum up like from her perspective and to finish it because he wasn't able to finish it because he died. Again, not a spoiler.
 
Ian Binns  47:23
Yeah. Well, like the book cover said that like when I was boiling Okay.
 
Rachael Jackson  47:35
Unlike my story, he doesn't he does not live.
 
Zack Jackson  47:40
We are remarkably fragile creatures.
 
Rachael Jackson  47:43
remark. Yep. So we've talked a lot about life and where that can take us and the fragility of it. So I think that that's wonderful and a good a good place to pause our conversation and if anyone has stories that they want to share with us, please feel free to do so. But I think we are at the moment where we can have our down the wormhole minute and today or this week is Kendra
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  48:20
so I haven't decided what I want the theme music to be for the segment yet, but I might workshop a couple ideas. Right now. I want it to be something like Welcome to the segment on residents of hell. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, like some electric guitar.
 
Zack Jackson  48:44
It will be so much better if instead of electric guitar you just did it with your mouth
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  48:57
yeah, that's, that's kind of where I am right now. But I also want to figure out a way to blend the drone earner and earner of electric guitar with like, needy, needy like ukulele sounds. I just think those things together can really express you know, the sentiment of hell. So Well, we'll see. Yeah, so welcome to the first segment of residence, pal. I just wanted to do that again. And so today, the first Resident of hell that we're going to talk about are the hungry ghosts. And if you've never heard of the hungry ghosts, hungry ghosts, come out of the Buddhist tradition, and are particularly popular in Chinese Buddhism and are present in a few other East Asian countries where Buddhism is popular, but I think Chinese Buddhism is kind Have the main Buddhist tradition that people kind of associate with hungry ghosts and to kind of paint a picture of what a hungry ghost looks like. Because they have a very distinct presentation, they are these beings with large distended bellies, that they're always hungry. Hence, you know, it's kind of implied in the name. But they have distended bellies that are, you know, always ravenous with hunger, but they have, like long, very skinny, skinny throats. And whenever hungry, goes, try to eat food, the food, basically like turns to fire in their mouths and in their throat. So it's very painful, to try to eat food to, you know, satisfy the hunger in their large, empty stomachs. And their throats are also so skinny and small that like they can't really eat that much. And so it's they, the Hungry Ghosts, like the image of a hungry ghost is kind of like this embodiment of desire and greed. And there are a lot of different ways that you might become a hungry ghost. So that's the other thing to kind of point out is that hungry ghosts is like a possible reincarnation for, for a human, depending on your karma. So in Buddhism, there's another image that I can try to kind of paint for you, that's the Buddhist wheel of life. And there are upper realms that are more the heavenly realms, and there are lower realms, more the hellish realms, there is a distinct hell realm. And hungry ghosts actually have their own realm and they're on the visual of the Buddhist wheel of life, hungry ghosts are adjacent to the hell realm. So they're one of the lower realms and like, you don't want to be reincarnated into the Hungry Ghost Realm. But you might be reincarnated as a hungry ghost if you lived a life that was just full of greed and desire and over attachment to worldly things. Because, you know, if you're unfamiliar with Buddhism, then it's worth mentioning that in Buddhism, attachment is like a big no, no, like, you want to try to live a life in which you are not attached to, to worldly things, and you recognize that everything changes and it is marked by impermanence. And when you become attached to anything that leads to suffering. And so you're trying to kind of alleviate suffering by these practices of non attachment. So hungry ghosts are kind of a like if you become a hungry ghost, then you didn't do a very good job of being unattached. And every year during the ghost Festival, which happens in the seventh month of the lunar calendar this year, it happened like mid August, people the the lower realm the hellish realms kind of open up and hungry ghosts can roam, roam the earth here with humans and people are able to feed the hungry ghosts during the ghost festival to kind of alleviate their suffering. And so people will burn money and food like paper money and paper, food and paper kind of like luxury items to you know, appease the suffering of these beings as they wander the earth on a during the time of the ghost festival. So that is the Hungry Ghost
 
53:59
when I'm just hungry
 
Zack Jackson  54:05
I can relate. Hungry Hungry Ghosts
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  54:08
are done or not. You have just listened to the first residents of hill. Thanks for joining me didi.

Mental Health Part 4 (Schizophrenia)

Episode 93
In part 4 of our mental health miniseries, we talk about psychosis in general and schizophrenia in particular. Why does Hollywood continually misrepresent schizophrenia, and what does it actually mean to experience a psychotic break? Is it always a bad thing to hear voices or see visions? Did many of our hallowed religious heroes live with schizophrenia? If so, does that change how we should think about their words? Let's talk about it! 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript 
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
 
 
Zack Jackson  00:00
Hey there, Zack here. Just a heads up. In this episode we're going to be talking about psychosis, schizophrenia, hallucinations, and how we've encountered them in the media, in our religious traditions and in our own lives. As Kendra says in this episode, being a human is weird and complicated, and I want to acknowledge upfront that even though we are trying our best to be sensitive to all experiences of humanity, we will likely fall short. So if you'd like to head over to the down the wormhole conversations Facebook group, we'd love to hear about how you have experienced schizophrenia psychotic breaks hallucinations, or have interacted with those who have. Are there people in our scriptures who can help us to see these disorders in a new light? Let's talk about it. Well, let's talk about it in about an hour or so. You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are Zack Jackson UCC pastor in Redding, Pennsylvania, and if my life were a movie, I would hire Paul rent to play me.
 
Ian Binns  01:08
Ian Binns Associate Professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. And if anyone could play me, I'd probably pick Ed Helms,
 
Rachael Jackson  01:18
Rachael Jackson, Rabbi at Agoudas, Israel congregation Hendersonville, North Carolina and if I have someone play me in a movie, I'm gonna ask Sir Patrick Stewart, because he's just the best.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  01:33
Kendra Holt-Moore, assistant professor of religion at Bethany college and Lindsborg Kansas, and if I had to get someone to play me in a movie, it would be Kathryn Hahn. I'm trying to remember who that is. She plays Jen Barkley in parks and rec She most recently what I saw her she's a witch Agatha. Oh, yeah, Vision Agassi's it was
 
Zack Jackson  02:01
also a young a young Laura Dern. I think what would be great as Kendra
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  02:07
Oh, yeah, people have said that to me, too. Yes. Young, large earner like Lauren's daughter something.
 
Adam Pryor  02:14
Prior, I work at Bethany College in Lindsborg Kansas. If someone were to play me in a movie. I think it would be Statler of Statler and Waldorf.
 
Zack Jackson  02:25
Having a muppet play You bet.
 
Rachael Jackson  02:29
That's perfect. Actually.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  02:36
Oh, sorry. I don't really know who the specific Muppets are. I know who the Muppets are, but I don't know
 
Adam Pryor  02:43
that there is one
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  02:46
who heckles besides like Miss Peggy? Yeah, no.
 
Adam Pryor  02:49
Guys who hackles
 
Zack Jackson  02:51
Statler and Waldorf. Yeah,
 
Ian Binns  02:53
yeah, I can see that. I could definitely see that. Yeah, that's totally you, Adam.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  03:00
Yeah, so today, we're continuing in our series on mental health and we are talking about psychosis today. Pardon? So, we're talking about psychosis, but we're actually talking like more specifically about schizophrenia. And, and so, psychosis, like more generally speaking, is there a lot of different ways for someone to experience a psychotic break, have a an episode of psychosis, and that can look a lot of different ways. But it it like the main, the primary characteristic of psychosis is like a major break from reality. And so it is, you know, understandably, very disturbing, and very destabilizing of the individual who experiences psychosis and psychosis. Different disorders of psychosis are are often like, not very well miss. Not very well understood. And, and so that makes them both kind of, like frustrating and also intriguing to clinicians and like to the popular imagination, there's just like something about, you know, psychotic disorders that are, you know, the way that they get represented in, in film, and in TV. They are usually portrayed to be, you know, a little a little scary, like, not scary from the inside of like the person who has experienced a psychotic break because obviously, that's frightening, but also frightening to people on the outside watching what's happening. because it's hard to understand or like, connect with someone who has a break from reality and in how do you how do you care for a person or include a person who is just seemingly in like a totally different dimension of time and space in a lot of ways, then then what you are experiencing in your more like grounded reality. So that's generally like, what psychosis is. But to talk more specifically about schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is, again, like we, we understand more about it, like we're learning more and more. But it's, there's still a lot that we don't know. For example, we don't, we don't really understand, like, what causes schizophrenia. And we can make some observations about schizophrenia. Such as, like, if you have someone in your family with schizophrenia, like if you have a parent who has schizophrenia, you have a higher risk for developing it. But that's not necessarily indicative of it. Like it's not, it's not a fact that you will have schizophrenia at some point in time. And we, we know, you know, we've observed that schizophrenia tends to happen, roughly equally, between women and men. We, you know, we know that like, kind of stereotypes of schizophrenics are that they're dangerous and violent. But, you know, we have observed that that's actually not true. Short, like, anyone can can be violent or aggressive. But that is not, that's not a general or fair characteristic of schizophrenic people. And schizophrenia, there's also different types. So like, I guess I should, you know, maybe say, like, what exactly this is, because, you know, we have, again, I think people probably have associations of, of what it is from, like media representations, but it's a brain disorder, again, not entirely sure, like what's going on in the brain, but a brain disorder that can create a lot of really disturbing symptoms, such as hallucinations, which can be visual hallucinations, or auditory, like sound hallucinations. And it can make people delusional. And so you know, believing in something very adamantly, that is just not true. So, you know, some delusions might might look something like, like, someone who's delusional might think that they are like a savior of some kind, and they have to, like, save the world. And they might think that, like, the FBI is sending the messages that are about information that only they would know, because they are destined to, like, save the universe. Like, really, you know, some of these delusions can be very grand, delusional thinking. And other symptoms could be like trouble just thinking concentrating or communicating. There are a lot of, you know, especially people who work with schizophrenics, in a clinical capacity will tell stories about, you know, speaking to someone who's schizophrenic who has symptoms that disturb communication, they might just like string a bunch of words together, but those words don't actually make any sense whatsoever. Like, there's not a comprehensible sentence there. But something is happening in in the in the brain, like the communication pathways where whatever that person may or may not want to say, it just doesn't come out. And likewise, someone who's schizophrenic, who is listening to another person talk, they may hear different words than the words that are actually coming out of that person's mouth. And so that's another again, just like disturbance, that is a break with reality that they don't have control over and is it's it just makes it very difficult to navigate, like what should otherwise be pretty mundane, normal experiences for people. Other Other symptoms are just like a General, General flat effect, or, you know, a lack of expression, a sluggishness that just, you know, is is pretty severe. And so there are like, there, as you can see, there's like this constellation of symptoms that can appear. And, you know, usually people will have like more than one of these symptoms. But the ones that are especially disturbing are typically the ones that are the hallucination or delusional thinking type of symptoms, and hallucinations, you know, whether they're visual or auditory. Those are hard, obviously, because it's, it's, it's difficult to distinguish what is real and what is not real. And so those are, especially, you know, a lot of researchers are intrigued, by the way that people who are schizophrenic sort of interpret their hallucinations. And it's just kind of this really distinct, like qualitatively different kind of symptom then the like, flat effect, which is still troubling and disturbing in its own way. But so there's just something to note there about like, these, this constellation of symptoms that schizophrenics Can, can experience collectively, like, why this is disturbing. Like, it's clear why that's disturbing the break from reality. But what we're talking about mostly today are hallucinations. And, and, you know, maybe some delusions too, but especially auditory hallucinations in the sound of hearing voices. And so to say something just about, like hearing voices, that can, that can happen in a couple of ways. So, for example, you may hear a voice, maybe one person is saying something, but in like your schizophrenic mindset, you may hear that voice sounds like it's coming from multiple people, like there's kind of a lesion of something talking at you, but maybe you're having a conversation with one person. I mentioned already that, you know, another example is hearing words that are not actually coming out of the person's mouth, and they're saying something totally different. Another, another way of hearing voices is just noises in the environment that kind of morph into what sound like voices. And so that can lead to a lot of experiences of whispering and, you know, kind of chatter in the distance that can't quite make out what the voices are. But it sounds like voices. And so I there's, you know, an example of like a car sort of washing by down the street in the sound of the car wishing by that kind of like car wash transforms into a what sounds like a voice. So voices, wherever, whatever stimuli in the environment, or like in that person's head, that's creating the voice. You know, it may or may not be clear, like, there are ways that schizophrenic people learn to manage those symptoms. And, you know, I think my understanding is that some people can identify like, certain things as being real or not real, but sometimes it's hard, especially, I would imagine, if you were like just discovering that you are schizophrenic. It, there's no, there's no complete cure for schizophrenia, you can manage symptoms with anti psychotic medication, but it's, it's, it's disturbing. So this is, this is this kind of brain disorder is, again, it, there's something that's just, it's so severe, and it's transformation of a person's everyday experience that a lot of researchers and people have this interest in this the intersection between something like schizophrenia, and a person's, like, experiences of religion and spirituality. And that's not always relevant for like particular people. But, but it is something that comes up and there is there are a lot of, you know, social scientists, especially like psychologist anthropologists, and, you know, other other clinicians who are like asking these kinds of questions about like, what, what this intersection could be, and, and to say, Oh, one more thing, also that, like schizophrenia sometimes is mistaken for like multiple personality disorder, which is also known, I think, maybe more accurate accurately now as dissociative dissociative identity disorder. So, you know, those They're also like, their own kind of like disturbing, you know, experience of the world break from reality. But that's their distinct from schizophrenia, what we're talking about. So what is the intersection between something like schizophrenia, psychosis with religious or spiritual experiences? So, there? For one, there's a lot of people who asked this really interesting question about the history of shamanism, and people in in various cultures. Just just just code, like what we would call diseases or disorders, it's important to realize that, you know, that the the way that people experience not just schizophrenia, but a number of different conditions, there, there's a cultural element in the way we like code, others and our own experiences with these disorders and diseases and schizophrenia is no different. So, in in, in Western countries, like in the United States, in particular, it is a lot more common for people to experience schizophrenia in themselves as like madness, their people are much more willing and immediate in their response to say, like, this is bad, these voices that I'm hearing, if they have auditory hallucinations, they are disturbing me, they are frightening me, they are torturing me. And there's a generally speaking, a negative experience with auditory hallucinations. And, and people also typically, you know, just the, the way that we talk about something like schizophrenia, people are more likely to use the term schizophrenia as like a category like a word that describes this collection of symptoms that we see as disordered. And they're, you know, the solution is antis, psychotic medications are like being put in a mental mental institution, and, you know, various other clinical ways of managing something like schizophrenia. And so, people in the US, when, when researchers have like interviewed people, with schizophrenia, there's this language around it, that's much there's just much more negative experiences with voices. And, and, and what people find in other countries and other like cultural settings, is, it's not that people don't ever talk about schizophrenia, or that they don't ever feel afraid of their hallucinations. But, um, there's something pretty distinct about the contexts of other other cultures from the US context in which there's more flexibility in how other cultures sort of manage something like schizophrenia. And so there's an example of a group of researchers who kind of compared three different groups of schizophrenics in, in the US, in India and in Ghana. And what they found was, the US kind of fit that characteristic of people describing a negative relationship with their hallucinations. But when they looked at the, the samples in Ghana, and in India, they found that people were much more likely to describe the voices they were hearing as providing guidance. And sometimes people would say, you know, some like in India, there were a couple of people who had hallucinations of like, a particular Hindu God, or, you know, maybe have like a family member or like a famous person they'd read about in a magazine, like different manifestations of visual and auditory hallucinations, that they instead of, you know, it may be more frightening at first, but over time, they started to almost rely on them, like these voices actually helped me understand and remind me what I should do to be a good person. And in other instances, you know, they're, like, in the, in the India in Ghana samples in particular, people might feel like a kinship with those voices, that maybe there's like family members appearing in those hallucinations that are, again giving guidance and providing a sense of I mean, I don't know if like comfort is the right word here, but there was less fear and Like revulsion at those voices, and there was a place kind of created in the mind of these people. And so, you know, they, they realize that what they're experiencing was unusual compared to others, but there was still a coating of those experiences as something that was either instructive or, or supernatural. Definitely a relationship between voices, and supernatural deities or, or demons, that's not uncommon. And you know, that, again, it's not that people in the US, like, would never code their experiences as supernatural or demonic are from God in some way. But this was, the seemed to be a little more acceptable and common in, in the samples from India and Ghana. And, and so this is just an interesting, like, comparison, and I think is relevant to this broader question that other researchers are looking into, like, is shamanism is there a connection between shamanism and something like psychotic conditions like schizophrenia, where you learn how to manage voices and, and symptoms that you're experiencing that are different from everyone else, and instead of being in a mental institution, you are now sort of elevated into a, into this particular role in a society where you can still interact and function in a community by sharing what you have that no one else has. And it's a way there's, you know, it's a, it's, it's a way of thinking about something like schizophrenia, that's, that kind of normalizes it, or like, maybe not normalizes it, but it provides a place. So that's a person doesn't need to necessarily be like, isolated or feel like they are like, totally insane. And it's just really different and interesting that this is like, this is the interesting link between something like schizophrenia, these like psychotic disorders, and, you know, religious or spiritual interpretations of those disorders to be sort of functional for a community. And so that's, that's the, that's what I, you know, just when, when introduced here, so, like, how does that how does that land for any of any of y'all, and what do you? What other thoughts do you have? Like, what do you have any experience? Do you know, anyone with schizophrenia? Like, what do you what do you think?
 
Rachael Jackson  22:58
Yeah, so thank you for
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  23:00
sorry, no,
 
Rachael Jackson  23:03
you're good. You're good. Oh, good. Thank you for giving us this perspective. And I really like the interdisciplinary overview. I obviously am in the culture of America. So those that I know that have schizophrenia have definitely experienced it in that aggressive and fear based place. And it was lovely to read about these places in India, I was really fond of the one from India, where they were saying that this is really, I interpreted it as protective, and guiding, very almost nurturing and parental, which is very different than people that I that I know, with schizophrenia here, that it's very fear based. And it's, it's daunting, it's not just the break from reality, that's scary, which I think would be across cultures. But it's the how they're experiencing the the auditory. I'm not gonna say just voices, but the auditory sounds right. Well, that's redundant. What they are experiencing from sound is scary. And we don't we tend to our society tends to, to shun that to shun the differences. Our society tends to think that if you if you have this break, you're broken. And that was something that that has really stuck with me and trying to figure out how to encourage people to to acknowledge that they're not broken, um, has been something that we as a as a society and culture can fix, I think, even if the disease itself you know, we can't
 
Zack Jackson  25:01
So, my my first experience with this, even with schizophrenia at all, came from the movie, beautiful mind about the mathematician John Nash, played by Russell Crowe, who has a roommate that he lives with that assumes that everyone knows this roommate for years until he discovers that this is not a real person. And he's in his mind, and there's this whole world, and then they discovers he's got all these conspiracy theories. And it's, it becomes this sort of thriller. And that is how I imagined schizophrenia to be that there are people out there who just imagine that there are people with them at all times, and how terrifying that was. And they kind of, there was a, I think there's a scene in there where he does hurt someone. And it's kind of like, this guy is a danger. But I more, just lived for years terrified that this was actually happening to me. And that the people that I knew, like, I would be like, is this person real? Or am I imagining them? Am I having a psychotic break? Or is this person real? Can you see this person, and it made me really paranoid. And now that I'm, I'm a bit older, and I realized that that's not actually how it works. And that's just how it works in Hollywood. And that it's more like, a lot of these voices are internal. And people kind of understand that. I, I've seen it everywhere. In in my religious world, we tend to attract people who hear voices. And I get that all the time. Now. It's like, I heard a voice from God saying this. And it's usually something about how this person is uniquely qualified to save something or do something really important or dramatic. And then that is left up to me to decide if that is the voice of God or the voice of a psychosis or both, or neither. And I feel woefully unqualified to do that. And for the most part,
 
Rachael Jackson  27:14
I would second I would second that you are woefully unqualified.
 
Zack Jackson  27:19
Thanks, Rachel.
 
Rachael Jackson  27:20
You're welcome. You're welcome. I think I think clergy are often the first people to to recognize that there could be something amiss, and that's our job. And then to pass it along to the people that can go Oh, no, you're just having a faith experience? Or, oh, wow, you're really having a psychotic break. Right? And that we're the first persons to acknowledge that, yes, you can hear these voices. And sometimes it's a natural faith thing. And sometimes it's a natural brain disorder thing. But just just just just reaffirming that you are willfully unqualified as am I, as our most clergy. Sorry. No offense. Yeah.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  28:05
I think that's a good point, though, about an in Yeah, it makes sense that clergy are in many cases, like the the first people to encounter people in which it's hard to tell what's happening, because there's some there's the shared language of people who are experiencing hallucinations, whether they're like, specifically schizophrenic or, or something else, saying, like, God said this to me, and how to distinguish that from other people who, you know, it might be unclear if they have something going on in terms of a brain disorder, but that's also just like common parlance to talk about, like, Faith experiences, or, you know, like, there's, there's a whole book actually one of the researchers who have participated in interviews with schizophrenic people. She also wrote a book about evangelical faith and the language of like, talking to God. And so that, you know, just like the recognition that there's shared language there, and you know, typically, I think it's, it's straightforward to tell when, like, what the difference is, but not always. And I think that Rachel and Decker, you know, right, that it's clergy who have to kind of make that first call sometimes.
 
Zack Jackson  29:35
Well, so here's an example. There's an elder at the church, who one day showed up to a worship service, stark naked, and ran around the parking lot, yelling about how this church had become corrupt, and how the pastor was in in league with the devil and was and with that Elder board was siphoning money. And we used to run around every day, every Sunday morning, when people showed up would show up naked streak through the parking lot and yell about how this church was going to hell did it for three years. Okay, so that didn't actually happen. But it happened in Isaiah chapter 20. And when Isaiah does it in Isaiah chapter 20, it's like wow, with this prophetic image, that God told him to remove thy sackcloth, and thy shoes and to even expose the buttocks for under three years to shame the Egyptians, as he went through the towns, prophesying to the people. And that sounds holy and righteous. But if somebody did that now, we'd be like, This man has a psychotic break, and he needs to be hospitalized. And should we have hospitalized? Isaiah? Yes. Yeah.
 
Rachael Jackson  30:58
Yes, no, I am. I'm being totally serious. I mean, I think that the hospitalization of people that have mental disorders or challenges, we need to fix that system. But the concept that Isaiah probably had some sort of mental illness, absolutely, I think our the Hebrew Bible at least I can't really speak to the Christian bible as thoroughly, really examples of the human conditions. And Isaiah is one of those that examples, schizophrenia. I just like when we talked about depression, and we can see it and anxiety like, I believe that the Hebrew Bible absolutely gives us reference to most of the brain diseases that we are uncomfortable with to this day. So yes, I think he should have been, but somehow positively. So then,
 
Zack Jackson  31:57
is Isaiah hearing the voice of God, or the voice of Isaiah? And if by hospitalizing him and treating his condition? Are we then stopping prophecy?
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  32:13
asking those tough questions,
 
Zack Jackson  32:15
that's what we're here for.
 
Rachael Jackson  32:16
Right? I think it's who's listening? Right? I think that if a person like Isaiah, minus the modesty issues, because let's remember that they had a very different understanding of being closed or not closed than we do in our semi Puritan American culture. You know, barring that piece, if someone's listening, and it makes sense, then yeah, that that person can still be a prophet. And whether or not that is the voice of God that Isaiah is hearing, in actuality, or the presumption of Isaiah that it is the voice of God, who Isaiah is speaking to his hearing as a as a prophet. And they're the ones that are listening or not listening. And I think we can absolutely have people that are prophetic nowadays. And it's really the difference of, you know, where is it God? Or is it an understanding of God? And does that even matter? So, yeah, I, I think, yes. It's that we have gone deaf, to people that are trying to show us show us things about our society that we don't want to.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  33:31
I was gonna echo something similar that you said, Rachel was like, the question of a god or as an internal voice, that, yeah, like, does that matter? For one, the person who is hearing the voice, but also does that matter for people who are listening to the person, and for some people, that will matter, and for some people that won't. And so I think, with like, the authority of the or the origin of the voice, may affect the like, interpretation of the importance of what is being said. And that just kind of, kind of depends what's happening. I think, as to whether it's, you know, whether one, it depends on the context, in the content of what is being said as to whether I, for example, would think that person needs to be institutionalized. Or, you know, if I would maybe be likely to call them something like a prophet or a guide of in like a cultural moment. I think they're, it's just like the kinds of voices people hear or claim to hear are so varied. think there are absolutely some voices that I do not want to listen to and that I do not want you to have to listen to You know? So it's like, are you telling me to like, go jump off a bridge? Or are you telling me that like, society is corrupt? Because those are both examples of things that people can hear when they're hearing voices and claiming that it's coming from God or, you know, the devil or whatever. But, you know, it's, it has the interpretation of what to do with that information is contingent upon the community, cultural norms, a bunch of things. And so it makes it very tricky to kind of, I think, generalized about like, how to respond to those voices from the outside. And also like recognizing, I watched a, an interview one time with a person who's schizophrenic, and the interviewer was asking her questions, and started asking her questions about, like, the hallucinations, and she had visual hallucinations. And so the interviewer started to say, like, do you see the hallucinations right now? And where are they in the room? And she said, I'm actually not going to answer those questions, because I don't like to tell people where the hallucinations are in the room. Because when real people start interacting with my hallucinations, it makes it difficult for me to tell what is real and not real. Found. And so I thought that was really, really interesting to just like from, from that, like, another perspective of how to deal with what is happening.
 
Ian Binns  36:42
Yeah, so, you know, to echo what Zack said, the beginning, one of my first experiences with schizophrenia was the movie, A Beautiful Mind. And, you know, I'd loved that movie. And I, as we were kindred, as you're talking, I'd looked it up and was, I did not realize that when the movie came out that it was actually celebrated by some in the mental health community that had a somewhat accurate portrayal of schizophrenia, not that they didn't take liberties, but that it actually did somewhat of a decent job. But I also remember when that movie came out, it was a time when I was struggling with medication for my depression. And when I saw that movie, and saw that the, you know, John Nash, according to the movie, was able to overcome some of his, you know, issues with schizophrenia, by sheer will, that I remember thinking to myself, Well, if that's possible, why couldn't I and so I remember actually having those conversations with my counselor at the time, and she was saying that, even though the movie did a somewhat decent job, that there was a lot of pushback on that part of the film. And that's what the thing I read too, was that that's not accurate at all. Like it, that's not how it works. And so, so that was one thing. But the other thing too, when we're talking about voices, it just kept making me think about, like, who is it that determines that whatever voice someone's listening to is, right or wrong, right? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, how is it that that's determined that okay, this, this person clearly has a mental health disease, they need to be hospitalized versus not? So because if you know, there are a lot of people who say that I, that they speak to God. Right, but they're not coming back. Right, but then also to if they say that they believe this, that God is speaking to them. Is that an example of schizophrenia or not?
 
Rachael Jackson  38:50
So, if I may jump in here. I'm one of the I'm going to give a quick anecdote. There's a person that I knew that was taking a psychological test. And part of the psychological test was on a on a form, like on an actual piece of paper, this was before before computers, so on an actual piece of paper. And this person was smart enough to fool the test, and gave all of the answers to indicate that this person had a psychotic schizophrenia. And then the people that were evaluating this test, looked at it and went, Well, it's true. You showed us this, your paper is pristine. There were no erasers there were no, it didn't get torn up. The paper itself was perfectly fine. So this person was able to trick the system. But the challenge is it's not just a checkbox. So when we're talking about people that have hallucinations visual or auditory? I see things I can imagine something or someone sitting right here in my office, I can see them in my mind's eye right here. Right, I can vision. Am I hallucinating that am I hearing that one of the things that I think is challenging that we forget, his people that have not had this break in reality is in conversation with a person that is either currently going through or has had or is off medication, or whatever the situation might be. The flow of conversation is not the way that we understand it. So when I read Isaiah, or I read some of these other people that go, Hmm, there's something amiss here, they're still understandable of people that I have interacted with which at this point, you know, given that I'm a small town clergy, you know, I were numbering a couple of dozen people that I've I've interacted with that have this particular diagnosis, you cannot follow their thoughts. It is a thought here a thought there it is all over the board. And they think that they are making perfect sense. And that's the break, where there's a major disconnect, not just in the delusions of grandeur, like I, one of the articles that will link in, in today's show notes, has this idea of John hood, I believe his last name was who's who's talking about this, and then he thinks that he's a shaman. And he then he thinks that he's going to that he's married to two African princesses, and he's going to go live with them. And it's one sentence to another sentence. And the listener has no ability to follow these trains of thought. And we forget that. So A Beautiful Mind doesn't necessarily example that the other movie the soloist about I think his name was Nathaniel Ayers, a white ers, that has a little bit better understanding of the challenges of from the the person who is who's has this illness, about them what they really go through. So I just want to add that, but yes, we hear God and if someone says, oh, you know, God talked to me, but God made perfect sense to the listener. And they're saying, here's what God told me to do. And how was, you know, have a great day. And I hope you have, and it's cohesive. I think these are clues. So
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  42:43
I just want to follow up on what Rachel said also, that just real quick that, like hallucinations, it that like having a hallucination is not an automatic indicator that like you're schizophrenic, that some of the other like conditions in which you might have hallucinations, or things like Parkinson's disease, which I didn't realize, like hallucinations were part of that until recently, brain tumors, you know, sometimes like Alzheimer's, like there are different, like epilepsy stuff, stuff, stuff happens in the brain. And so there's other other like, you know, we talked in the beginning about the constellation of symptoms. And so that's just like, something to keep in mind too.
 
Adam Pryor  43:26
But I was gonna say, it seems like that idea of an integrated epistemic frame is really important, right? So like, if the pieces are integrated into a singular or cohesive worldview, then you have one sort of set of things. It's this moment where they no longer can be held together, but they have to be attended to simultaneously that that's this, like this break that occurs. So I can talk to God, but if it but if it integrates with the way in which that I experienced the world, you know, totally good.
 
Zack Jackson  44:16
So then religion offers that sort of scaffolding for these sorts of experiences, then on break pretty regularly. I'm thinking of like Joan of Arc, if she were in a different sort of situation. Would her her visions her voices have said different things if she were in South India instead of in France? Or is God speaking directly to Joan of Arc? And we are trying to diagnose the work of the Holy Spirit and trying to medicate away modern day prophecy and the presence of a living and terrifying and powerful God.
 
Adam Pryor  44:59
Like that Academy at all.
 
Zack Jackson  45:01
I know you don't you don't love dichotomies at all.
 
Adam Pryor  45:07
It feels like if I asked this feels like a full trichotomy,
 
Zack Jackson  45:10
this is. So this is the the tension that goes on inside of my head. Because I was, in my developmental years, I was told that, that a lot of these anti psychotic medications are there to suppress actual experiences with the supernatural, because there are some people in the world who are more sensitive to the presence of the supernatural, both good and evil. And the anti psychotics then suppress those natural abilities. Think like the first half of Captain Marvel, right? That that kind of limiting factor because we can't handle the spiritual world and the modern, modern world, because we have to be able to explain it, and domesticate it, and understand it in order to, for it to exist. And so that I still have that in there. And and now I think I'm thinking more about like, positive mental health, and how would you like to live? And we're understanding more about how the brain works. And we don't quite understand how this works. And I want to just have space open for that as a possibility. But I don't quite know what to do with it.
 
Adam Pryor  46:30
Don't don't want that space open. Oh, but
 
Zack Jackson  46:33
Adam, so many of our religious traditions are based on Revelation are based on divine revelations, in stories and in histories that have been passed down to us. If those divine revelations happened today, we would label them as psychotic breaks. I mean, if you just started talking to a bush, don't you think that we would say you're having a psychotic break?
 
Adam Pryor  46:57
No, they'd say, I'm walking around campus, but
 
Ian Binns  46:59
like, fight moment
 
Adam Pryor  47:03
point out, right. It's not actually the scientific side of this that bothers me. Right? It's actually the theological side where I want to go that bad theology, it is a bad understanding of the supernatural.
 
Zack Jackson  47:16
Okay, hit me with it.
 
Ian Binns  47:18
So yeah, you got to unravel that one.
 
Adam Pryor  47:20
I would argue that all revelation is contextual, insofar as it is a mode of communication. So it is, of course, going to change depending on where and when and how that revelation occurs, because the supernatural isn't something separate from the natural, as if it is in other realm that has its own structure of things from which it originates. It is something layered over the natural, you know, what super natural actually means on top of the natural. So it's just a deficient theological understanding as far as I'm concerned.
 
Zack Jackson  48:00
So there's,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  48:02
it's I think that like Adams talking about a naturalist interpretation of Revelation, and Zach is talking about a supernatural right, but in
 
Adam Pryor  48:10
his supernatural, this version is bad. It's a bad understanding of supernatural.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  48:15
Oh, I mean, I, I'm with Adam here, but just to like, describe what the different.
 
Zack Jackson  48:22
So there's two different types of revelation that we often talk about natural revelation, special revelation, natural revelation being the things that you can deduce on your own from the laws of the universe, in your experience of being a human on this planet. special revelation are those times that God speaks to a person and tells them a specific thing, right? Like, go set my set my people free, like that's, that's a special revelation. Jesus coming and and saying, Hey, God told me this thing. And I want you to know it. That's special revelation. And I'm talking about the special revelation, not the natural. Yeah, I'm still
 
Adam Pryor  49:03
on board. But special education is still contextually located. Absolutely, period. So it's gonna change no matter where it is that it's spoken to. It's only if you treat special revelation as though the supernatural othering world from which it comes, is so overwhelming, that it completely mutes the expectation of the receptive hearer, in such a way that that context no longer matters, that it creates a break with the actual place in which it is received and I want to go, that's not communication anymore. That's not even revelation anymore. Right, insofar as revealing is supposed to be a form of communicating. So, to my mind, like there's no sort of like articulation from a theological tradition that can defend that notion of special revelation on its own terms.
 
Zack Jackson  49:59
So, Paul, On his donkey horse, I don't remember his going to go do some some good old fashioned persecuting, and gets a blinding light falls off his horse, or donkey or whatever it was, and sees a vision of Jesus standing before him that says,
 
Adam Pryor  50:16
Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? That's what Paul told us. Right? But actually, that's his failure that all he saw was a blinding light. There's no God, and he's not actually an apostle. So shouldn't we just throw stuff out? I mean,
 
Zack Jackson  50:32
should we ever go in there today, Adam? I'm just talking about Paul, in Paul's words, Paul, in Paul's words,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  50:39
great episode, I'm so glad that you had
 
Zack Jackson  50:41
a vision, he had a light, he saw light, he fell off his his quadruped head and hit his head. And then he couldn't see for a while until he was healed by this guy, this fella. And then he could see again, and he had this special revelation that feels a lot like he had a seizure. It fits a lot of the categories of that. And so when you explain it like that, like naturally, then you might just say, Wow, he had this break, he had this, this seizure, he maybe had some epileptic stroke. And he then attributed it to, I must have been doing something wrong when it happened, because God was punishing me. And then after the fact, put in his theology, and that's what's happening.
 
Adam Pryor  51:30
Kinder, you raising your hand?
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  51:33
Yes. I just wanted to jump in and say, Zack, you you've said a couple times, like, what I think like referring to the, what Adam called the dichotomy here between like, is a revelation or psychotic break. I don't think that calling like, I don't think that rejecting revelation leads immediately to describing something like the examples that you're giving as psychotic breaks, I think, like another way of, of naming that without going straight to like, psychotic mental disorder, would be to say, like, I think the way I would describe that, coming from, like, a more like social science II type framework would, would be to say, there's selective attention. Like, whenever you experience different kinds of, like auditory visual stimuli, especially in cases where there's like a religious or spiritual experience going on, there's selective attention happening where people, you know, the selective attention you give to light to sound to images, it affects the way that you code and remember those experiences, which sometimes are things like, you know, prophetic visions, or, like, whatever it is, it's not. And I think that this is, like, I think this is getting at some of like, what your concern is, is that it like, and I understand the concern also being about like reductionism, I think of, of like, spiritual and religious experiences. But I think that selective attention to our just daily experiences is just something that everyone does. But especially in, you know, these cases where it's like, extraordinary circumstances or experiences of certain kinds of stimuli. Our like, we each have selective attention that is informed by cultural, you know, biases and cognitive biases, you know, the way that we understand kinship, family, friends, spirits, minds, all of those, you know, cultural pieces affect the way that we attend to our experiences and, and that's not necessarily good or bad. It's just a fact of like being human and so that that's like a third option I want to throw in there as like, maybe revelation, maybe psychotic break, maybe selective attention, and all of those things, all three of those options can have meaning. And so I think, yeah, like, meaning is not mutually exclusive to any of these. Yeah,
 
Zack Jackson  54:35
yeah. In the, in the fear of reductionism, I think is where the, my soul wants to push back. Because if I am going to accept that an angel appeared to marry and told her something very specific, but then immediately dismiss that an angel showed up to John Smith in my congregation because of all he says a lot of training things that I need to second either second guess how I'm treating him today? Or how I am Reading my own religious tradition? And I think I need to be honest with that. I can't have it both ways.
 
Adam Pryor  55:13
Yeah, this this is where I think reductionism becomes a boogeyman, though. Like, it doesn't have to do the things that in some theological and religious circles people say it will do.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  55:27
I mean, that's what I'm, I'm on board with that I like, reductionism is is the name of the Boogeyman. But the boogeyman is not really looking man
 
Adam Pryor  55:38
is just a nation sack.
 
Zack Jackson  55:40
Oh, man, you academics trying to trying to dismantle the argument instead of instead of coming straight at it?
 
Ian Binns  55:52
I'm just enjoying listening. So no, I really wish I had popcorn in this conversation.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  55:59
No, but like reductionism. It is, I think, the primary concern that people have when when we talk about this, like religion and science intersection, and people who don't, who aren't coming at these conversations out of an academic context, like, like, it makes sense to me why that's a concern. But I like Adam, I I don't think that that. I think that the fear that people have about reductionism, my experience of that was only like an initial fear. And then, like, over time, a realization for me that, like, I just, I still Yes, I've like changed over time, in some significant ways. But I still think that there's a lot of meaning in experiences. And just because we like understand the way that the brain works, or, you know, like, the way the body works, I don't think that that means we can't also have this like layer of experience in human life, that is profound. And not just meaningful, but also really profound and spiritual. And, you know, all the other ways that we talk about those kinds of experiences. It's just also true that it probably like the way that I interpret that situation, that experience is going to be different than, you know, the way someone else interprets it in their own framework. But I'm comfortable with that. And I realized that that just inherently will make some people uncomfortable, the difference in our like, understanding of, I guess, like the ontological nature of those experiences. So yeah, I don't know.
 
Zack Jackson  57:50
Yeah, I think there's a, I'm there with you. I'm there with you, intellectually, I either I don't disagree with anything, I'll say that. I think my where I'm coming from as a kind of practical place in which I am on the regular in contact with people who have visions, and who have experiences and who are asking me to help interpret the Word of God that has come to them in a vision or in a moment of rapture, or in this data, the other. And I think, Paul says that we should discern every spirit that comes. And, you know, it's not so easy to tell if this is the spirit of light or of darkness. But that every vision, whether it comes from while you're Reading some textbook, or having some ecstatic moment of otherness, and experience, that all of those visions need to be tested against what your community holds as true, and what is good for human flourishing. And so I'm, I feel the fear of people, when, when I suggest I'm having this experience, actually right now, not like in this moment, I'm not having an experience. I'm, I'm with somebody now, who is having some a lot of these kinds of experiences. And she is extremely frustrated at every other pastor that she's talked to, because they all say, Wow, it sounds like you're having some mental distress. Have you seen a therapist? Are you on your medication, instead of meeting her in that space in that common parlance of like, Yeah, okay. I might personally think that she is having a psychotic break, but I need to communicate with her in this realm of of the spirits, as both as a common language so that we can actually get somewhere productive and also as a way of kind of intellectual honesty that I don't entirely understand the workings of the supernatural and the natural and ease I don't understand how magnets work. So I don't I don't know, maybe you are experiencing something that I'm I don't know. So I try to stay intellectually, spiritually humble in those situations. I mean, I do understand intellectually how magnets work, but I don't know how they work. Kendra, do you have any final thoughts first, as we wrap up?
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  1:00:26
Well, I just wanted to say in the sharing of intellectual honesty, I, I just I want to say that, like, my academic explanation of like, someone saying, God told them to do whatever it is, like I can talk about, like, selective attention and all of that. But if I'm talking about like, oh, energy healing, yeah, that I sure, um, oh, no selective attention. That's just that's just real. I like it. That's not to say that. Like, it's a different category of experience. Of course, like, you know, that. I don't even know that some people would feel comfortable, like comparing those two things. But just to say that it's not. People are complicated and have different kinds of experiences that they understand in different ways. And it's not that people who I don't I don't think it's fair to say that people who, who use academic jargon and and do maybe, like lean on, like reductionistic ways of thinking, which I actually I do not group, me and Adam into that category. Maybe y'all group us into that category. But I think that those people always have something that they don't talk about that's like personal and that is, it is like the bottom level foundation of like, their what, what is real for them? And it's just also like a SEP, like a separation issue of like, the academic and the personal when you're in like different settings. And I imagine that feels really different when you're like a clergy person. So yeah, people are weird, you know, people are weird. That's my final word.
 
Rachael Jackson  1:02:17
People are weird. People are weird. That's today's title. Oh, but Adam, Adam has
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  1:02:23
a big,
 
Zack Jackson  1:02:24
yeah, tagline
 
Adam Pryor  1:02:26
got a bit. I'm super excited about it, share it with,
 
Zack Jackson  1:02:29
you have a jingle.
 
Adam Pryor  1:02:30
We're working on that. So until then, I've decided to title my bit under the apple tree. In deference to the apocryphal phrase from one of the persons of my tradition, Martin Luther, who was said to have said, Even if I knew that tomorrow, the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. I mean, in all likelihood, he didn't actually say this, the earliest you can trace it back as about 1944. It's by a phrase from the Confessing Church, trying to ensure that it continued to do things in resistance to Nazi dictatorship. But you know, it feels better when it comes from the person who's ostensibly the founder of your tradition. And this gets interpreted a lot of ways. But generally, what you know, the sentiment was, was that even if things look like they're going to go terribly, if the world might end, you move one step at a time, so I thought, what better way to end podcasts than to rehearse the ways the world might end? So for today,
 
Ian Binns  1:03:32
tapping into your superpower.
 
Adam Pryor  1:03:38
I decided, well, it's one let's be clear, there are a whole lot of people writing about the ways this would occur. So I had a lot to choose from, but I decided I would go with supervolcanoes today. And the idea is that, you know, because we don't actually live on a nice, stable planet. In fact, we live on, like, rafts of rock floating over molten lava all of the time. At various points in the history of the planet. Those ruptures occur such that molten rock flows all over the surface of the planet, and four of the largest last 11 extinction events are all tied to when volcanoes erupt at the same time. Usually, it eliminates somewhere between 95 and 98% of species on the planet. Wow, on average, that happens every you know, 17 to 30,000 years, and it's been over 36,000 years since the last one. So we're overdue. overdue. So that should be occurring anytime now. And essentially what will happen is there will be so much carbon dioxide spewed into the atmosphere that it'll create a runaway greenhouse effect. And you can expect that all Plants will die, including plankton in the waters. And that spells real trouble for the rest of us. So, if you see volcanoes going off in chain sequences around the world, plant your apple tree,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  1:05:19
don't bother running.
 
Zack Jackson  1:05:21
Don't bother planting an apple tree
 
Adam Pryor  1:05:22
know, the apple tree anyway, it's gonna die. It doesn't matter. You keep doing the thing, plant the apple tree,
 
Zack Jackson  1:05:30
throw the starfish back in the water. That's right,
 
Adam Pryor  1:05:33
it won't make a difference.
 
Ian Binns  1:05:37
So just carry on the way you're, you're going back.
 
Zack Jackson  1:05:40
Who cares about recycling your wind? Where are the super volcanoes?
 
Adam Pryor  1:05:43
So this is the interesting thing. They're actually like chained together, right? You can find these various volcanoes at major junction points between tectonic plates. There are 19 tectonic tectonic plates that we sort of move around on. So they shift a little bit, right. But we're familiar with these areas like so like the ring of fire in the Pacific, Pacific chains of islands. And if you want like an example of like where this has occurred, and history, India, like the entire subcontinent of Asia is just one large lava flow in terms of how it was produced, so that's the scale and size of which we're talking. All of these volcanoes erupting simultaneously. But yes, Yellowstone is a potential one. Although people don't think that that's actually there's some debated scientific evidence over whether or not it would be overdue for erupting so date. Yeah,
 
Rachael Jackson  1:06:42
I don't like when Adam goes.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  1:06:47
The earth is weird. People are weird. Everything is
 
Zack Jackson  1:06:52
awesome. And at the end of the day, the horseshoe crab and the Nautilus will keep going.
 
Adam Pryor  1:06:58
I'm just saying like, I feel like Kendra and I can really lean into the jingle bit here. It's gonna be gonna be good.
 
Rachael Jackson  1:07:06
Yeah. Stay tuned for that.
 
Ian Binns  1:07:10
Yeah.

Mental Health Part 3 (Autism Spectrum Disorder)

Episode 92
When is non-neurotypical behavior something to be 'cured', and when is it something to be celebrated? Is ASD a problem to be solved, or is society itself simply too inflexible to respond to that which does not easily conform? Have our religious institutions provided outlets for neurodiversity or are they a part of the problem? Let's talk about it! 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript 
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
 
Adam Pryor 00:05
My name is Adam Pryor, I work at Bethany college. My favorite Halloween decoration is a giant, hairy spider that my wife got pretty early on when we were married. And it's motion censored so that when someone walks up to the door it goes. But oh, no, it's gonna do that. And it also shakes and it terrifies small children. Because it's like the size of the small child
 
Ian Binns 00:47
and is in the bay?
 
Adam Pryor 00:50
Yeah. Yeah, we we usually put it in a big web. And then it makes the whole web vibrate too. And it's made toddlers cry at our door, which I think is the goal of Halloween.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 01:07
So, Kendra Holt-Moore, assistant professor of religion at Bethany college and Lindsborg Kansas, and my favorite Halloween decoration is probably anything skeleton, but especially those skeletons to like sit in the rocking chairs on the front porch and just kind of like look out over the street watching people walk by they may or may not have motion sensors in them, but they still have life in them.
 
Ian Binns 01:38
Ian Binns social professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. My favorite Halloween decoration and we don't really decorate in our house, but I love walking through the neighborhood and just just seeing which house goes the most crazy, right? And how impressive it is almost like you know from home improvement that show when they would always go bonkers. It's like the TV shows always do the best Halloween things I love to see of houses come up with something like that. So it just varies every year on what my favorite would be. Which is not really answering the question. But as I said, I'm a little tired today, Punchy.
 
Adam Pryor 02:22
And I couldn't break the rule of
 
Ian Binns 02:25
Alright, right, Adam? So. Okay, so to segue into,
 
Adam Pryor 02:30
there's no, there's no good segue. So as we've been like, as we've been talking about religion, mental health and issues of mental wellness. And, in particular, sort of focusing on different aspects of that the area that I was most interested in, when we started talking about taking this up were areas of mental health, mental wellness, where we, we really look at ways in which the world gets sees seen differently. And so the one that comes to mind for me, always sort of right out of the gate is thinking about the autism Asperger's spectrum. And a big part of that was in the summers, my wife wisely requires me to read some things that are not theology, especially when I was doing my PhD because I was a little mana maniacal. And so occasionally, she would go to the library and just bring something back and be like, just read this and stop for a while.
 
Ian Binns 03:45
And she still does that, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Because
 
Adam Pryor 03:51
there's yeah, there's a there's a rule of how many workbooks I am allowed to take on vacation. Good. Um,
 
Ian Binns 04:00
yeah, Kendra, listen. Yeah, it
 
Adam Pryor 04:03
continues to get smaller and more irritating. But that's a difference. So So anyway, this this, this one year we were we were there. And she was like, You should read this book. I just finished it looks really, really good. And it was The Curious Incident of the Dog and the nighttime by Mark Haddon, which has now become a play as well, but I kind of encountered encountered it as the book. And the idea is that it's it's a mystery novel about the death of a dog, unsurprisingly. But the the central narrator is Christopher, who is a 15 year old boy. And Christopher, you learn as the book goes on, is sort of dealing with a nonspecific version of Asperger's. There's autism spectrum. And the author is just deeply clever about the ways of revealing these different experiences of the world that he has. Right. So the like, I remember sitting and being both, like irritated and sort of in awe of when the chapters suddenly skipped. So there was 123. And then it went to five, and there was no four. And I was like, bamboozled. And I kept flipping through the book and trying to figure out what's going on. And all of the chapters are prime numbers. Right. So there's the little, little details, right, that are intentionally put into the book to sort of create this, this sort of effect. What struck me about this as that may be a little different than some of the other disorders we've spoken about, but in some ways that are resonant as well. Autism Asperger's spectrum has a, I would argue, a generally more positive place in public discourse. Then some other mental health issues that we've that we've discussed. But also, there's this sort of interesting overlap with how it is that we raise up or minimize the voices of folks who have these experiences. Part of what struck me the very first time I was Reading this book, as being so important was that it did two things that I think are really impactful and important for thinking about in terms of religion, and mental health. One was that it humanized. The experience of living with Asperger's autism, in a way that as you were Reading the book, the book wasn't about someone with Asperger's, it was about Christopher Wright. And I thought that was really important and effective to remember, right. The second piece that I thought was really, really, really interesting out of that, was that it I found it at least sort of strangely affecting my teaching. And the ways in which I thought about engaging other students in the classroom. And this is the part that I don't, you know, that totally worked out. But one of the pieces that I thought was really interesting, and that is really important for me, as I started thinking about religion and mental health is that we, we make intentional choices about how, how to lift up, or how to cast to the side, non normative experiences. And religion, science, and I would argue, higher education, have a lot of roles in the ways we choose to or don't choose to do that. And so I found this book really meaningful, amusing to me, because it forced me to look at the ways in which I was treating non neurotypical students in ways that treated them as a disease vector in the classroom, not a human being. So, what's attracted me to sort of like thinking about autism, why I wanted to sort of pick this particular topic is that I think there have been so many really interesting accountings of trying to help people understand what experiencing the world, from this perspective is, like, in a way, this may be a little different than other mental health pieces, right? So like, yeah, I read The Curious Incident of the Dog of the night, but there are things like the good doctor, there have been blogs from Autism Speaks, that really, really work on helping people understand the variety of ways that this this experience occurs. And also, which I think is interesting, whether or not it should be cured. And what that even means is really really difficult when you talk about this topic. So I'm a little sad that that can rage on here cuz I wanted to like really poke at like, boy, but that's different in a religious community setting than it is where I am. But I'm curious. Just to sort of like start with like, what has been your experiences with Working with folks who would, quote unquote, be non neurotypical?
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 10:09
Yeah, I could say, just, you know, what I was thinking of when you were talking are not necessarily the people that I know personally who were not neurotypical, but like people I know, people I know who I'm close to who are close to people with autism. And listening to the way that they have spoken about autism, like in my presence over the last, I don't know, five or so years, and how that has just been really interesting and eye opening. For me, and some of the ways that you're talking about Adam, of just like, you know, asking these bigger questions about what autistic people, like how autistic people see the world and how that, like there are aspects of that, like way of being in the world that it doesn't quite make sense for us to, like, pathologize, in the ways that we have, and, and so, you know, I don't, I don't know that I am aware of anyone that I'm close to who has autism. But yeah, it's just, it has been really enlightening, I guess, to hear people talk about the ways in which autistic people have like, sometimes a very hyper logical way of seeing the world and how that could, you know, be like, useful in different like problem solving settings that is just like a different kind of, like mental proclivity that like not everyone has even, even if you're just talking about like neurotypical people. And so, you know, they're, like, the neuro diversity of people. There are there, there are other like forms of neurodiversity that we just have decided, she's like, not categorize for whatever reason. And so, autism is something that we've like noticed as a pattern and have categorized it as autism. But if you think about what it means to be neurotypical, and this, like much broader sense, and like what neurodiversity is, in this broader sense, then it just makes sense. Like, it's just intuitive to, to think that like, Okay, we talked about people being like, right brained or left brained, and it would be probably odd for a lot of us to be like, Oh, the right brained people are, you know, they have a disease or something. And we, you know, it's like not, not to diminish the, like, difficult aspects of someone living with autism, because there's, like, you know, definitely, it's just true that, like, the system's not really built to accommodate them. And so that leads to a lot of problems for them, and in the classroom, and at work and in relationships. And so there's definitely, like, that's definitely there. But it's just interesting to think about how, like, maybe, maybe we could have systems in education and at work that actually did accommodate neurodiversity. You know, autism being an example of that. And, you know, maybe we could have systems that accommodate these people, and how would that how would that make the world different? How would that how would that change, like our social structures if we were including people who see the world really differently as people that were like in charge or had power in various ways to, to make us who we are? And and so that, I just think is like an endlessly fascinating question, especially listening to people. You know, try to like answer that question when they are living in like very close proximity to people who are very neurotic, neuro diverse and in different ways.
 
Adam Pryor 14:36
No, so, what I was like what I was thinking about, Kendra, it's, it's that question of pathologizing. That I think is really, really interesting, right? And how we choose to how we choose to pathologize and what the consequence of pathologizing various mental health orders or disorders is is I think, really, really interesting. And, at least so far as we've been talking about this, right, when we've talked about depression, when we talked about anxiety, the way in which those get pathologized feels a little different than something like autism Asperger's spectrum.
 
Ian Binns 15:18
Can you unpack that? What makes it feel different?
 
Adam Pryor 15:22
So well, and that's like part of what I can't, I can't quite put my finger on it. Because but he like each week, we've been talking about it, I'm going like this is there. There's something here that's not quite the same, right? So like, there's an element with like, Ian, when both you and Zack have talked about anxiety and depression, right? There's a social stigma that this is inherently unacceptable, right? And there's sort of this element of like, I'll put it crassly like, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and you'll be fine. Get over it, get over it, right. Whereas with like autism, Asperger's spectrum disorder, there's a little bit less of the like, get over it. Element. Right. But also, right, there's this like, very clear element that like, people would be comfortable with me talking about someone with Asperger autism spectrum as non neurotypical. And I don't know if somebody would be comfortable with me saying like, Oh, you suffer from depression, you're not neurotypical. Right? Like, there's even this like disjuncture, in the language of how it gets pathologized. That I think is really is really fascinating. And makes me wonder, are the the ways that we talk about those, the ways that we talked about the impact of religion and science on that intersection with these mental health issues? Does that just look really different? In terms of how to how to move forward?
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 16:59
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. And I like do you think out on that, because I also have that sense of, like, there's something different here. But as you're asking the question, I'm wondering, like, is it in part wrapped up with the fact that things like depression and anxiety, they're more centralized in like, the emotional aspect of a person's being, whereas something like autism or, you know, various other conditions are more, I'm not sure how to say it, but like, mental is not quite the right word. But like, they're, they're more integrated into, like, every aspect of a person's being. And it's not necessarily just about like, an emotional like, disorder, disordered experience. But it's like the way that you think the way that you feel the way that you take social cues the way that you you know, like, other behaviors that are not necessarily emotional, you know, at their core, but things like depression and anxiety, I see those as much more emotional in nature. And and I think this like, piece of how, like religious, I mean, not even just like religious people and traditions would maybe talk about them is that it maybe feels more acceptable to be like, Oh, someone with depression and anxiety like this is, this is not actually like a part of who you are, we, we, you know, can like help you, we can pray for you, we can, you know, get you counseling, do all these things to help restore you to like your person, whereas, I think not that people wouldn't also say that about other things like autism or other other conditions, but I think the approach in general would, would feel a little different. It's like, oh, this is who you are. So let's just accept you and love you and try to find a way to integrate you into our community in a way that is like loving and compassionate is like the kind of language difference that I would anticipate.
 
Ian Binns 19:23
Well, I also wonder to the idea that when we think about anxiety and depression, it at least the the thought is from from some people is that like, so for me, where I want to talk about me, I have not had to deal with anxiety my entire life. It has not always been part of my life. Right? I still also deal with depression and that has not been part of my my entire existence. Whereas someone who either his, you know, either has Asperger's or autism that, you know, the and you know, to my special friends out there may want to beat me up later, I'm sorry for lack of a better understanding of the language to use and everything but you know, that it's almost like, well, it's something you're born with, or that's just part of who you are from the very beginning or, or something along those lines. Right. And so that there's a distinction there that people may view it as I'm not saying that's accurate. But I'm just wondering if that's part of the thing of as you as we were talking about, you know, toughen up when it comes to anxiety or depression is the mentality that some have, whereas with Asperger's, or autism or something like that, it's, you don't approach it that way. Right? Because it's part of your identity of who you are.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 20:51
Yeah, that was those basically what I was saying it, but I also want to add that, like, I, I think that there, it would be, this is something I think that Zach, especially would have something to say. But I think people who have like, severe chronic depression, and have like, had it since their early life would maybe resist the idea that like that's not inherently like part of who they are. That's, that's not the way that I tend to think about it or have, like, tended to talk about it. But I wonder if that's the case for someone like that, and with anxiety too, but I think like what I've tended to experience and notice in most of the people that I know, who deal with those things is that even in chronic cases, they're like, their highs and lows. And, you know, it's, it's yeah, it's just usually spoken about in these different ways.
 
Ian Binns 22:02
Yeah. And just as a caveat, or a disclaimer, to anyone listening, please understand that, you know, I personally have been on some form of an antidepressant most of my life. So I do not, you know, my perspective minute ago is not something I necessarily hold to. I just wanted to say that that, you know, that is not how I view, anxiety or depression, you know, and we have had conversations before about when it comes to like, antidepressant medication and stuff like that, is that when I'm on that, does that is that the real me? Right, we've had those types of conversations in the past and how I am adamant that yes, that is the real me. Because that's the me that I want to be with. Right? So anyway,
 
Adam Pryor 22:48
I think there's this like, question of identity that is wrapped up in all of the versions of like, how we've talked about the intersection of religion and science with mental health that I think is really important and interesting. And so like, you know, coming back to The Curious Incident of the Dog in the night, right? Like, despite my wife's best efforts, immediately after that, like I was deeply, deeply curious about, like disability studies and disability theology. And like, I just spent a lot of time immediately diving into this. So doesn't work. But
 
Ian Binns 23:26
then what was the name of the book? Again,
 
Adam Pryor 23:27
The Curious Incident of the Dog in the NightTime.
 
Ian Binns 23:31
Okay, thanks.
 
Adam Pryor 23:33
So, in what strikes me about that, and, and to me, the resources that religious traditions have been producing in disability theology over the past 25, or 30 years in particular, are so important, are just so important for it, for helping folks start to tease out how it is that we, we talk about this intersection of identity, and disability and pathology in ways that can be really effective, but also really challenging, right? Like, to my mind, the fact that we're having this conversation, and it's really hard to figure out like, Well, where do I categorize this? Like, you know, as human beings, we like nice, neat boxes that we can put these things into, right. And I think one of the really important things that disability studies has done and disability theology in particular has done has said, hey, look, those narratives that we've had in our traditions about healing and wellness, and in provement, and salvation, even can have really detrimental effects on the way that we think about and pathologize those who don't fit into the norm both in terms of physical health, but also mental health. in ways that can be either really helpful or really destructive. So, like, early on, Kendra, you mentioned this, like, it made me think of like doing like a thought experiment, right? Like, what? What would it start to look like if your social structures around you were designed for and put in place to facilitate engagement with folks who are non neurotypical? Right. Like, and I guess this is sort of like a, this is both, uh, something I think about a lot. Now that I do, I don't know, administrative II things. But also, like, I think a lot about in terms of like religious communities, right. Like, what are the things that we do that accidentally exclude people? Even though that's not what we mean to do? Oh, I
 
Ian Binns 25:54
think that happens all the time. Yeah, I mean, I think so. The reflective process is what makes it challenging, because you have to really be willing to look at yourself to see how do you do that? Which I think takes a level of vulnerability. Because you're, at least to yourself admitting that, oh, I put people in boxes, by others, I other people, right.
 
Adam Pryor 26:25
And, um, I guess there's like, part of me, that starts to wonder then, like, what's the role of religious communities in facilitating changes in that regard? Like, what are the steps that we would want? None of us are, you know, clergy, but I look at it sort of to go, you know, maybe into our own context to like, what are the things that we would look at around us and go like, that would really need to change?
 
Ian Binns 26:53
Well, so. So for me, and this will actually tie into the book I want to talk about, at the end of the show, is, over the past year, and especially throughout the pandemic, you know, I've really struggled with how people, you know, aspects of society have approached the pandemic, with lack of empathy for others. Right, and like, what I perceive as a lack of caring, and it has led, especially me with it coinciding with such a toxic political timeframe in our country, for me to have very judgmental views of others, not necessarily other people that I disagree with politically, like someone who identifies as Republican versus Democrat, that's, that's not it, it's more of the extremes. Right. And so, I have found that I'm in a place where I struggle with that a lot. And so I've purposely been selecting different books and different resources to read as a way to get back to the point where, while I may disagree completely with someone and what it is they believe and stand for that I can still see them as a person. Right, not less than not inherently evil, or something like that, that I you know, but I'm aware of that, as I said, you have to be aware of those things happening.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 28:47
Yeah, I mean, I guess, when I think about like a religious context, again, not a clergy person, but it you know, if we're talking about, like autistic people in particular, I did attend a church. This was when I was in undergrad at church. And there was, there was a young man who started coming really regularly to the college ministry stuff. Who was on the autism spectrum. And I think that, you know, kind of reflecting on that experience, and just what it felt like on a Sunday morning to, you know, to speak with him and to like, watch them interact with other people. I think that like using the autism spectrum, as an example, the greeting time in the morning, in like religious spaces, and again, you could apply this to other organizations in which there's like this kind of loose social time of interaction where people are expected to greet each other or, you know, in like a conference context to like network with each other? Like, what is that? What does that look like? And how do you be accommodating or like welcoming to someone who might like, say something unexpected too. And if you're like, expecting a neurotypical person to be in those interactions, you might respond differently or be like, feel something like off putting or, you know, I don't know, feel awkward in a way that, like, shuts down this possibility for relationship. And I, I think I noticed, in general, like years ago, attending this church, that people, I think, for the most part really leaned into it, it was like, Oh, good morning, let's talk about the 20 pages of like, song lyrics that you wrote last night, and, like, let's like, do a deep dive. And that was just like this kind of particular interaction that you would have with this person. And, you know, maybe the next person you spoke to is just a brief handshake and like, a good morning. But it's just, I don't even know, like, how to speak about that in terms of like a system change. But it's just, I think, kind of a letting go of like expectations of what someone should, like offer you or like, bring to you. And I don't think that's always very easy to do. And it's also like, kind of exhausting to do that, if you are in a space where you're talking to, like, hundreds of people. So, you know, like, it's, I think it's a hard question to figure out what that would mean, to make a shift or like a transformation on a structural level. So I don't know, like, that's what I think of, when I'm thinking of like, the religious context, just like that particular example. But then I think in the academic context, like in my teaching, which, you know, there's like, a lot of things about being like a, in my first year as a professor that I, like, I'm learning a lot about, like my own pedagogy, and what's working and not working. And one of the things that I always feel very sensitive to, because of my own experience, as an undergrad and graduate student, are just people who are like, a little bit either, like a little bit are definitely diagnosed, or somewhere in between, really struggle with like, a DD ADHD type symptoms. And I think, like, that's, that's, it just changes the way like, you have students who are going to, like, read every single word of the page, and always do the Reading, like three weeks early, and, like, come to class and like, know exactly what they want to say. And then there are people who are just like, perpetual, like strategic skimmers, and our, you know, like, they have questions, but they kind of come in the moment, and it's not, it's kind of hard to, like, prepare how to, like engage in the classroom. And then, you know, they're like students who are just like, disengaged, they don't care. There's like, you know, a lot of things going on, or maybe they're just lazy. Like, there's a, there's a bunch of different student experiences. But I, I feel that, like, I have always sort of struggled with the, like, I don't have a diagnosis of ADHD, but I have struggled enough with like symptoms of that, that I have been tested, and have like, tried different, like medication and stuff for it. It's also the case that like, women are, in general, like less likely to have a diagnosis for that kind of thing. But it's been an inflamed part of my experience as a student during my PhD work, especially. And so I just feel like when I'm in the classroom, I try to figure out a way to, like, reward the students who are doing all the things like clearly excellent students, and then reward the students who are really trying, but they just like, there's just something about the process of like being a student, that's really difficult, but they're putting in the effort and they're showing up and they're trying to participate and so to like, do things in class that are engaging and that allow you to enter into the conversation, even if you didn't read and like remember every single person's name and every date and like, you know, all the like super specific details that some students that feels natural to them. And, and so I don't know, like I feel like that's the example that comes to mind because it's like in this, I think conversation of like neurodiversity, but you know, a different kind than what we've been talking about, but just figuring out how to like, have something for everyone to the extent that they feel that they belong either in the conversation, or in the religious community, or whatever it is. And that's really not easy to do. But I think it's worth it. If the goal is community, if the goal is inclusion, if those are really central goals to your organization, or religious tradition or whatever, then you have to do those things. And you have to figure out, I think, like how to reasonably pursue those goals. Always. So yeah, I don't know, those are, those are things that come to mind.
 
Adam Pryor 36:07
Yeah, I mean, I, to me, it's interesting that the, like, the the two things that that stand out to me, or like the conversation can kind of broaden or narrow, right, because there are certain elements that I think overlap. Anytime you're trying to figure out how to discuss engaging neurodiversity, right, even if it's different types of neurodiversity, but also, right, there's this element of being really aware that the that the specific dimensions of that neurodiversity matter for what any, like whatever practical steps you would take. Lest I don't answer my own question. Yeah.
 
Ian Binns 36:54
I mean, you've ever done that? No,
 
Adam Pryor 36:57
it's not like I it's not like I make a habit of doing that. So I, the the piece that has come to mind for me, the more that I've thought about this, and I think just by sheer happenstance, I have ended up almost every semester that I have been teaching, like on a regular basis, I have had a small, not a majority, by any stretch of the imagination, but a small cadre of students who are not neurotypical. In fact, this may be the, like, the first semester where I don't. And it felt kind of weird. But I think one of the things that I've noticed about myself in those contexts is trying to ask over and over what are the expectations that I have of this situation, that privileged people like me? That if you are just a little bit more like me, you do better here? And how is it that I, what then is my responsibility to try and create a situation where I minimize that as much as possible? So the two instances that have come to mind for me are like, and I noticed, I just try really hard not to do any more. But in religious communities where I've been a participant, and I know there are folks, in this case, generally around Asperger's, Autism Spectrum Disorder, that are non neurotypical. The question that keeps coming up for me is, why do we preach every week? That seems really silly. And not a great way of interacting with those folks as part of the community. And I don't know, at least for me, having a week off from somebody giving a sermon feels like a good idea. Because that that's not my jam. And in a similar way, right, like when I think about, like, my time in the classroom, I think about in real instances, right? Like, where are the places that my my expectations about? Well, you would just do a little bit better if you could read the text more like me, or if you could sit still long enough, Ian, to actually just engage the way that I want you to engage. Right? Like I I find myself doing that. And like, for me, the step that comes out of this is to say like how do I how do I prevent myself from asshole mansplaining?
 
Ian Binns 39:58
Yeah, before We can do that. Yeah, I just wanna say I don't mind. I still love you, buddy. It's okay even though you call me out, you know, and everyone can hear it. It's okay.
 
Adam Pryor 40:16
Yeah, it's good. People don't see that he just wanders around while we're doing this.
 
Ian Binns 40:21
Yeah. I'm still listening, though. But if I get hungry, I got a.
 
Adam Pryor 40:25
Just I know. Yeah, I think I think wireless headphones were designed just for you.
 
Ian Binns 40:32
This is probably true. Yeah. If the wired ones I had word noise canceling, I think I would probably pay attention a whole lot better to life. Right. So, yeah, anyway.
 
Adam Pryor 40:46
No, but so these are the things that like I think about when I when I when I think about this piece, and it in terms of the religion and science conversation, I think the question that comes to mind are like, one, how do religious traditions decide whether or not they're responsible to folks in their communities? Who are not neurotypical? Like? What does it really mean to take responsibility for that? So that's one side. And then the other is, which we didn't talk a lot about today. But that's okay. Because there are always ways to talk about this, like, how much does science give us an out? I kind of wonder if science is giving us a Get Out of Jail Free card, right? Insofar as it lets us pathologize things. Right, like, I can only call out even if I pathologize the behavior that he's doing in a certain way, which science lets me do a lot better than I could previously. And in like that tension is something that like, as we talk about, like other elements of mental health, and religion and science, like I'm really interested in, in trying to tease that out. In large part, because I don't think it's really hard to do. And it's not something that's like intuitive to us, like, I can't rely on my common sense to find a way out of that. And also, like, they're not my stories, I am like a remarkably weirdly neurotypical, white cisgendered reader of tax who the system was designed for, like, if anybody should be able to be successful on it, it would be, you know, the guy given all of the privileges that the system was designed to foster and develop. So how it is and what then My responsibility is, as I hear narratives that don't fit that neurotypical neurotypical schema is, is, I think, really, really important. Because it can't, it can't just be the job of folks who aren't neurotypical to advocate for themselves.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 43:12
Right. And that question is such a, you know, like, to what extent is science give us an out? It's, it's just so hard because that that feels like a question that is like, this universal question. When in fact, like, there's so much about the context in which you're in, that I think changes the way that you might pathologize this behavior in one setting, but in another, maybe not so much. And that, you know, like, I think that's why there's, there's something really valuable about you know, the, the like, quizzes, I mean, some of them are not that good, but like quizzes or just like databases that try to connect people to different vocational goals based on personality characteristics is one thing but you know, like tendencies towards certain behaviors. And I don't know like I sort of see that as this like soft way of trying to address this issue of like where you fit like if you're someone who is high energy and easily distracted and you like love to talk to people. Maybe you shouldn't be like doing super mundane tasks and a dark office in the corner never having to speak to a human for like 16 hours of your you know, day. Like things like that that are really simple. And I think kind of taken for granted sometimes is this like, fun little self reflective task, but I actually think there's like maybe Maybe it's things like that, that are just resources available for people and to get people to self reflect in a more serious way about what your own strengths and weaknesses are and to not pathologize something that is a weakness and to not like, overvalue something that is like labeled a strength. But just to understand that, like, these are your strengths and weaknesses in this role. And to just I don't know, like, change the way that we value different behaviors and skills. Because there are so many different ways to apply those behaviors and skills in different like vocational organizational, like family, social contexts. And so I think, to some extent, like that will never be this simple question, it will entirely depend on how much time we're willing to invest in helping people develop self reflective skills to put themselves or like, you know, attempt to put themselves in situations that benefit their own, like proclivities, intellectually, and emotionally and physically and all of those, all of those things. So it's like, yeah, it's, it's a lot of work and people like that, it's, it's so easy to not want to do that work, because you have to kind of give attention to like, every person, and you can't rely on these generalizations. But like, it's just the nature of being human. And using language, we do generalize, we do other people, because it's convenient. And that sometimes is like, easy, unnecessary to do in certain situations. So it's like this constant tension of, you know, meeting the needs of the particular versus the, you know, General.
 
Ian Binns 46:57
Well, that can be exhausting. Right? to I mean, it's, it takes a lot of effort, but then can be tiring, when you're trying to put forth that effort. For others, right, especially if you if you go all in, and you're always trying to be that way. Yeah, it can be tiring, and some people, you know, and there are times where I've just been, you fall back on the generalizations of type of different people just because it's easier. But then you realize, too, that if they're if it's a particular topic of something that you're focusing on as a way to instill some sort of change in people's behaviors, including your own, then you realize you need to take that step back momentarily, but then get get back to, to the work to the hard work. So you know, so it goes away from that whole notion of other people who are different?
 
Adam Pryor 47:54
Well, we should probably move on to the ending part of the episode. Do that, edit that into? No, I don't want to say anything. Why would I want to say something, I don't want to make it easy for him. I want him I want him to really struggle with how it is that he's gonna try and wrap that up. Not here to defend himself. I'm not gonna give him anything easy. By which by which to do that. In good fashion, you probably should just leave this as my closing remarks so that everybody knows that it was my fault I've done as much cheery, happy as I could do today. And so I need some suffering to come out of this episode and that are really
 
Ian Binns 48:50
proud. Well, yes, I am proud of you, buddy. Are you gonna go throw up after this?
 
Adam Pryor 48:54
Probably. It's probably going to be like rainbows and sparkles.
 
Ian Binns 49:03
That's how you got to end it and back back and be part of the title, rainbows. So okay, so for my little tidbit, at the end, my little thing I want to focus on, and I'll try it once or twice just to see how it works is I want to do a kind of talk about and reflect on a book that I either am currently Reading or have recently finished Reading. And yeah, so the book that I chose today actually, is called hold it up for the two of you but you belong. A call for connection by seven is a lossy, she is her description down here on the bottom. I love this nerdy black immigrant, Tomboy Buddhist weirdo. She describes herself but I learned of seven philosophy from 10% happier she's one of she's actually the most popular coach on 10% happier. And I've one of the many meditations in the beginning that I really liked that she did. But it was actually one of her, she's very much in to social justice work, and has a fascinating background. And one of the things that I, one of the meditations I do at 10%, happier that made me shift away from other meditation resources was one that she did about racism. And it was a very, a 20 minute guided meditation, that was a very deep dive into racism, and and trying to, you had to be willing to deal with your own level of vulnerability. Because it was not a deep dive necessarily into societal racism, or where it comes from, but looking within and reflecting on yourself. And so it was raw. And it was incredible, because I just loved how she approached it. And then I learned of the book that she was working on this book book called you belong. And instead of kind of start taking with different notes last night, that I had written throughout the book, but I just want to kind of give the general idea of what her whole argument is. And what she's trying to point out, is that she talks about in here, when she says you belong, is recognizing what the whole point of belongingness. And so she says early on belongingness truth, and it is the fundamental nature of reality right here now, whether we feel it or not. And so what she's trying to argue throughout this entire texts, is that belonging is everywhere, it is natural, that happens, everything is connected. And she very nicely kind of throughout, the entire text does a very good job of talking about how more things like ancient ways of knowing ancient wisdom. That, you know, the more scientifically minded individuals would say, is not real solely based on either, you know, something from different religious perspectives, or indigenous perspectives, and how modern science is starting to show, you know, the notion of connection, that everything is connected. And we've known that for a while now based on science, but that how that's been an argument or a part of the belief that people would call it based system within different as I said, you know, religious traditions or cultural traditions that have been going on for centuries, if not millennia, about this connection to everything. And that now science has shown it that that makes that real, right. And so how we kind of limit ourselves with our ways of knowing. And so throughout this, one of the things I really love about it, that she kind of really helps us understand. And this is one of the quotes, I love that she talks about. That she says. So I'll just read this, when you don't like the joke, you belong. When you're the only one of your race, disability or sexuality, you belong. When you're terrified to speak in public you belong, when you feel hurt, or when you hurt, have hurt someone else you belong. When you're down to your last dollars, and the rent is due you belong. When you feel overwhelmed by the horrors of human beings you belong. When you have a debilitating illness, you belong. When everyone else is getting married, you belong. When you don't know what you're doing with your life, you belong. When the world feels like it's falling apart, you belong, when you feel like you don't belong, you belong. And then she helps us kind of delve through helping us see how it is we belong. And so I just wanted to point out a couple other things and then I'll stop rambling, but she nicely sets sets us up sets up the reader as pointing out, you know, the importance of grounding yourself, especially when it comes to like things like meditation, knowing yourself loving yourself. So this is stuff that Adam you would totally love. Right? And there's a whole chapter about self love.
 
Adam Pryor 54:15
I can go I feel I can feel ready to engage this text.
 
Ian Binns 54:20
You should because it's something that will contrary Yes, this is Oh, I'm going to tell Rachel This is the book that she should recommend to you for the summer. Oh
 
Adam Pryor 54:29
my god, you
 
Ian Binns 54:31
Yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna fact I'll even buy it. Right. I'll buy it and connect yourself as another one. And then finally learning to be yourself. And so some of the things that really helped me along through this and it took me a very long time to read it because I just kept getting really interested in everything that was she was talking about is that she really does a nice job of helping us see the ways that we are connected. And as I said, one of the things that I'm starting Dealing with personally, is two people that I who, so individuals who identify, maybe they don't claim themselves as white supremacists, but their arguments indicate that they more long, you know, Lie with that mindset of white supremacy, that they are still a person, right, we may disagree completely on that perspective of things, but that they still do matter, they still are a person, we are still connected in some way. And learning that, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them, it just is recognizing that they are still a human, you know, and that they still do matter in some way. There's a great time where she talks about putting yourself in an ad in this kind of talks about what you said, if you do not have, if only you could do things the way I do things, you know, then this right, and then he joked about with me walking around and moving all the time. And seeing things and how that's something that I do a lot too. But what she did, she didn't talk about her own personal story without of learning on this journey of hers that she went through learning that we are, we are all connected in some way. And we all belong, is that she there was during the time of George W. Bush presidency, and how she completely disagreed with everything that he stood for. But that she started thinking, and she would always put herself in the I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion on these things. That doesn't make any sense, right. And we always do that. And I would argue I do that a lot now, especially with with the last presidency, and then you know, the situation on January 6, and all those things of how do you not see these things like it doesn't make any sense to me. That one thing it's important for us to understand is that we did not grow up in that person's life, that even if you know, we like to say that I like to think that if I were in that mindset that I wouldn't do those things. But that's not truly possible, because we don't have that person's life experiences. And so part of her process was recognizing that, while she may have disagreed completely, with what Georgia decisions made by George Bush, that they were still connected, and that she'll never truly be in that in his shoes, because she was not raised the same way. Right. And so trying to better herself and better understand where people come from. And so the last thing I know, I'm all over the place, and I apologize as usual. But one of the things I really like about this, because she kind of goes through, as I said, this whole notion of learning to look past or to recognize the role of your inner critic, and what the inner critic does for you, but not letting the inner critic takeover, the comparing mind of comparing ourselves to different aspects of society. And the dangers with that is that she says near the end, if you want a different world, we must imagine it, to imagine it, we must become intimate with our deepest wishes, we cannot imagine without a desire for creation, without longing for something different. We cannot connect our deepest desire without simply being we cannot long if we cannot, if we can't feel what it is we long for. And then she goes into meditation, I'm not gonna make you guys do that. But anyway, but what it did for me was is and it's still a work in progress is still trying to recognize that the role my inner critic place, as I talked about, in the last episode, the role that my anxiety plays. And and recognize instead of, because when I start going down that spiral with my anxiety, you know, one of the first things I'll happen is I'll fight the feeling of anxiety. And so then I'm now fighting two things. And so it's trying to remind myself that, while I don't like that feeling, I get during a very anxious moment that there is a reason it's happening. And so to, you know, treat it as, as I said, Last on our persona of saying, I know you're there, you're there to take care of me, but I'm in charge, right. So welcome to the party, but I'm in charge. And so that's that was really nice for me in this book. And so something I definitely recommend, again, it's called you belong by seven is a lossy. And it's just a beautiful book about learning about who you are and where you come from. So
 
Adam Pryor 59:26
that's all it was. It was so nice. I felt like it would go very well
 
Ian Binns 59:31
with one that Adam was leading to end with that. And as I said, Rachel prior, I will shout out to you that I will make sure that I get a copy of this book to you sometime before next summer. So that you can have it ready to go when you recommend a new book for Adam. And then he can give us his his view of it
 
Adam Pryor 59:54
might be a fun point counterpoint version of what to do at the end of episodes. You could read a book and I could read one and We'll see what we both find.
 
Ian Binns 1:00:01
Yeah. And then I'll have seven is the lossy they're ready to roll and she can come in. Just take us
 
Adam Pryor 1:00:10
straight through
 
1:00:11
yeah

Mental Health Part 2 (Anxiety)

Episode 91
In part 2 of our mental health miniseries, Ian leads us through an achingly vulnerable and well-research exploration of Anxiety. What is it and how is it different from fear? What about anxiety disorders? Can you meditate your way to happy times, or are there too many complex chemical processes at work? Is Elf on a Shelf ruining our children and turning every waking moment into a nightmarish prison-scape? The answers to all those questions and the first ever "Dead Christian Story Hour" on this week's episode! 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 

Mental Health Part 1 (Depression)

Episode 90
Welcome back to the podcast! After a brief break, we're back with new episodes to usher in our third year of podcasting.  We're getting started on a personal note, delving into the science, spirituality, and personal experience living with major depression. What is it and what makes it difference from normal sadness? How do antidepressants work? How do our religious traditions affirm or condemn us in our time of need? All that and how to cure your sadness with electric fish and cocaine. 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
 
Zack Jackson  00:04
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are
 
Rachael Jackson  00:15
Rachael Jackson, Rabbi at Agoudas Israel congregation in Hendersonville, North Carolina, and my superpower is my level of patience and ability to keep going.
 
Ian Binns  00:34
Ian Binns Associate Professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte, and I believe my superpower is teaching Adam Pryor.
 
Adam Pryor  00:43
I work at Bethany college and Lindsborg Kansas. My superpower is the ability to suck the energy out of a room at any moment I choose.
 
Zack Jackson  01:01
Or infuse it at any point.
 
Ian Binns  01:06
It's like the de luminator from Harry Potter, instead of taking the mite away. That's right, all the energy that's right.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  01:14
Kendra Holt-Moore Oh, wait, though. Assistant Professor of religion at Bethany college and Lindsborg Kansas. I'm my superpower is the ability to not sleep whenever I have anything that needs to be done. So much so that it disturbs everyone around me who loves me and there is a name for this creature that no longer is Kendra. But instead they call our neck, which is my name, but
 
Zack Jackson  01:58
it's a great name, though.
 
Ian Binns  01:59
Yeah.
 
Zack Jackson  02:02
Zack Jackson UCC pastor in Reading Pennsylvania, and my superpower is the same superpower as Abraham Lincoln. Once Abraham Lincoln's superpower, I'm so glad you asked. Because that's what I want to talk about here at the beginning of this episode. Wait a second, actually, my superpower is transitions because oh, man, that was a good one. You don't make that transition. Even better is talking about the transition. Oh, man, everything is Christian. I'm so happy to be back. By the way, this this break to had was helpful in planning. And I know all of our lives are going crazy right now. But like Rachel said, It is good to be back. So um, this being a science and religion podcast, I do think it's important for us to instead talk about American history.
 
Ian Binns  03:04
Another one of those transitions.
 
Adam Pryor  03:07
You're gonna work Abe Lincoln in there, no matter what.
 
Zack Jackson  03:11
It's, you know, year three, and Abe Lincoln is starting like your one did with Thomas Paine. We're just gonna name drop along the way.
 
Adam Pryor  03:21
I can't hate on Abe Lincoln, though.
 
Zack Jackson  03:28
Oh, man. But I want to talk for a second here at the beginning about the difference between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas, because there's a lot of differences. And way back in the day in 1858, the two of them were locked in a tight Senate race in Illinois. And, you know, a Senate race in the Midwest in the 1800s was not all that exciting, generally speaking, not like Senate races today. But this one was special. This was the very first instance of American political theater, which we all have come to know and love slash hate. today. Most of that being the fact that it seemed like the issue of slavery was finally going to get talked about because it's been kicked down the road by generations and generations. But now with new states forming now we had to actually talk about the thing. And these two men, they stood on opposite ends of that spectrum. And also, there was a whole lot of new fancy technology that was making this local race into something more national, there was this newfangled thing called the electric telegram, which allowed news of things to spread hundreds of miles 1000s of miles, like in an instant. They also had all of these new trains all throughout the Midwest. And what would happen in these debates is these two men had Is that there would be stenographers there, and they would be writing down the transcript in shorthand as they went. And then at halftime, because there definitely was a halftime, they would give their notes to a person on a train. And that person on the train would write out the shorthand into long form. And then at the end of the train would hand it to the typist at the newspaper, who would then start and then at the end of the debate, the second half would get there. And so by like an hour and a half after the debate was done, the full transcript was already written and ready to be printed in the newspaper, which then got sent all over the Chicagoland area and out into the Midwest and like, this sort of thing had not happened before. So these men were not just talking to, you know, the good folks of Freeport or Galesburg, or whatever, but they were also talking to people in New York, in Virginia, they have this, this debate about slavery became bigger than just this local race. So on one side, we've got Stephen Douglas, a man that is not on any dollar bills. Because he though he won this race, spoiler, sorry. History kind of forgot about him. He was a little guy with a big mouth. He was known by his contemporaries as the greatest debater in generations, if he couldn't convince you and the crowd of the truth of what he was saying, then he would find a way to destroy his opponent so badly that everyone thought the other person was an idiot. He was he was amazing at what he did. He was confident. He was well known. He had the backing of the well established Democratic Party, he had great hair. And then on the other side, we've got Lincoln, a man who was six foot four, and 178 pounds, like literally a scarecrow. And he had a high pitched squeaky voice, and wore a giant hat that made them look even bigger and skinnier, like visually, not a great guy. He was also the member of the Republican Party, which was brand new, didn't have a lot of support. And at the time, he was neither pro slavery nor pro abolition. So he made everyone mad, and nobody really appreciated his position. So like on paper, this should have been such a landslide that we never heard of this Abraham Lincoln guy ever again. But Mr. Lincoln had a superpower. He did a superpower which would propel him into the national spotlight and eventually lead to his presidency. Abraham Lincoln's superpower severe clinical depression. That's right. Severe clinical depression though they didn't call it that. Back then they call it melancholia. But now if he were to be diagnosed, that's exactly what he would be diagnosed with. Which Same as me. So me and me and Ava were like the same guy. Except he was six, four and 178 pounds and I'm six, three and 270 pounds. So you know, a little bit bigger. But anyway, six, three, I am six, three.
 
Ian Binns  08:26
I did not know that.
 
Zack Jackson  08:27
I know. I'm only about four inches on your screen. But yeah, real life.
 
Adam Pryor  08:32
Okay, carry on. Sorry.
 
Zack Jackson  08:36
So, there are a couple of times in his life that he he went on, like an unofficial sort of suicide watch, where his family, his friends and family in the neighborhood would take turns checking in on him every hour or so. He couldn't get himself out of bed. And his people were worried about him. They removed every sharp thing out of his house. They brought him meals, and this would happen for like weeks at a time. He told a friend of his once that he never carried a pocket knife on him because he couldn't trust himself. There was one time when he was running for Senate, a little girl came up to him with her autograph book and asked for an autograph. And he wrote in this autograph book. The girl's name is Rosa. Rosa. You are young and I am older. You are hopeful I am not enjoy life. Eric grows colder pluck the roses air they rot
 
Ian Binns  09:38
Wow. Just makes you feel
 
Zack Jackson  09:43
warm. fuzzies right. For a little girl pulled out and looked at it was like Oh, thanks. I guess it's I think maybe he had some of Adams superpower in there too. Yeah. So, us, people, we people who live with this sort of depression, we kind of, we find ways to cope with it in the day to day grind, how to get through the day when we feel like our souls being sucked into a black hole. For me, I have always found music to be a good outlet, writing music, playing music, or being in nature has always been helpful. For Lincoln, it was being overly productive. He just worked himself until he fell asleep. And really sad poetry, which he wrote, and which he memorized other people's and used to recite at dinner parties. And that would suck the energy out of the room when he did. Or horribly inappropriate humor. He loved dark humor, too, I think most of us who are depressed, like dark humor, but those fixes are kind of like insulin for a diabetic. They, they help you get through the day. But they don't cure anything, they don't fix anything. So his his real transformation came in 1842 when he was 31 years old, and he checked himself into a hospital and received intensive mental care which 1842 this is before there was real medication, or this is pre Freud, and all of that. And so intensive psychiatric stay in those days meant a lot of sleep, quite a bit of cocaine, and Mercury and perhaps some electric shocks. Which by the way, on a side note, people have been using electricity to try to solve head problems since at least the first century. I found I found this out from there's a doctor named scrub bonitas largas. And he writes that if you have a headache, all you have to do is catch yourself a torpedo, which is a type of electric Ray, like, like a sting ray that lives in the Mediterranean, and then put it on your head, and let it electrocute you a few times, and then throw it back in the water and then you'll be fine.
 
Rachael Jackson  12:21
That's genius.
 
Zack Jackson  12:23
Yeah, so we've been electrocuting ourselves to make ourselves feel better for a very long time. And we're still doing it. And I'm going to talk a little bit about that later. But whatever he did in there was enough to get him well enough to get out and to get a mission. Like he started to see his depression differently. After that, like it was it was less of something that he suffered through and more of something that he could use for a better purpose. He, he he decided that he should use his suffering, to help alleviate other people's suffering. You see, studies have shown that happy people are really bad at fighting injustice, like truly awful. And I'm sorry to all of you happy optimists out there. It's just not your gift. Happy people tend to overestimate their abilities. They trust people too much. They see the world through rosy colored glasses. And so they don't see the need to change things all that much, because things don't look so bad to them. But we people with depression, we are under no such delusions, we think we can't stop seeing the things that are wrong, because that's just how we see the world. And we're a lot more able to empathize with the downtrodden because we are so often downtrodden ourselves. So our superpower kind of also our kryptonite, also. So Lincoln took that melancholic heart and He pointed it towards the systems that kept kept people enslaved. And while other people talked about slavery as a political issue, as issues of, of, of laws and regulations and logic and history, and blah, blah, blah. When he got up there, he spoke from his heart. And people like modern historians would say that, like, you felt what he felt when he spoke, like when he spoke, you knew that every word that came out of his mouth was coming out of his heart, and that he wasn't just a politician, that he wore his heart on his sleeve. And that level of authenticity is just so rare, that vulnerability and authenticity is so rare in in people that when a person like that comes around who's willing to speak so freely from their own feelings, it's like people listen, you know, Fred Rogers style, people connect with that on a deep level. So that was what came through and all of the communications all of the The newspaper articles that came out, they'd be like, wow, yeah, Douglas was great. But man, Lincoln really believes what he says. And that kind of authenticity became the fuel that would propel him into the White House. Eventually, he, he turned his coping mechanisms into the keys that would unshackle millions of people. His love of poetry became these heartfelt speeches, his need to stay busy kept him focused on the work of emancipation, his dark humor became something that endeared him to people in ways that other politicians didn't, he was just such a unique person who learned how to use his, his depression, for good. And that's something that I can relate with a lot, as somebody who has spent my whole life struggling with depression, and not naming it until I was, I don't know, maybe five years ago, or so, I've talked about my own journey of mental health a bunch of times on this podcast. So suffice to say, I only started seeking treatment a few years back. And it was only when I realized that I wasn't really able to be the father that my son needed that like, I couldn't get myself up to care for this baby, I couldn't feel deeply for him, I couldn't. And I had this this struggle, this debate, when I started taking my first medication. It was like, I stopped being able to be so creative, because music and creativity was one of my outlets for my depression. And so I'd only known how to be creative in depression. And so without the depression, I stopped being creative. So I had to make a choice. At that point, it was like, do I focus on the, on my son on parenting on trying to empathize with him? Or do I focus on my creative pursuits. And that was legitimately hard, because a lot of my identity was wrapped up in that. And sometimes I still wonder, like, what it would be like if I was not on any medication, but I, I'm really grateful that I have chosen to stay on. And from what I've learned about, like, what the signs of depression is, really confirmed that, that it's really important to stay healthy, and not just to get better for a while. And I'll explain why in in a bit after our first break, but yeah, so so my own personal journey, I feel like has mirrored Lincoln's, in some ways, obviously, on a much smaller scale.
 
Ian Binns  17:51
So far,
 
Zack Jackson  17:53
so far, sure. But in realizing that the thing that has been my burden my whole life, this depression, actually has become one of my superpowers, not only being able to empathize with people, and to be present in suffering, but to also have the ability to speak from a place of knowledge for people into people's lives who are suffering is not something that somebody without depression can do. And so I'm coming to terms with then how to see that in myself, I'm starting to see it more in characters in Scripture and throughout history. And we'll talk about that in just a minute. But let's take him just just a brief moment. 20 seconds to breathe, because that was pretty heavy. So one of the most helpful books for me. It's written by Andrew Solomon, it's called the noonday demon, an atlas of depression, which if you haven't read, you should if you suffer from depression, it's really helpful. And if you don't, it's really helpful in helping you to empathize with someone else. In trying to define even what depression is. It's very difficult, but he says, grief is depression in proportion to circumstance. So everyone has grief. Depression is grief out of proportion to circumstance. It is tumbleweed distress that thrives on thin air growing despite its detachment from the nourishing Earth. It can be described only in metaphor and allegory. St. Anthony in the desert, asked how he could differentiate between angels who came to him humble and devils who came in rich disguise, said that you could tell by how you felt after they departed. When an angel left you, you felt strengthened by his presence. When a devil left you felt horror. Grief is a humble angel who leaves you with strong, clear thoughts and a sense of your own depth. Depression is a demon who leaves you horrified. Which has totally been my experience of the thing. Again, it's a great book, because it's really hard to describe the, what it feels like to be depressed. And it's even harder to describe the physicality of depression. Can I tell you on a personal note, when I first saw my psychiatrist, and I was like, Hey, can you explain to me what's going on with my neurotransmitters? Like, I've heard I don't have enough serotonin, or I don't have enough of what is this? And it's making me and he said, Oh, well. Alright. So there's a certain sort of neuro mythology out there. That which is a great word, by the way, neuro mythology, that the only thing that is wrong with a depressed person is they have some bad chemicals. They don't have enough of them, or they have too much of them, and there's just out of whack. And if you fix the chemicals, you'll find it. I say it's neuro mythology, because it's too easy. It gives an easy answer to a complicated question. When in reality, we don't entirely know. So we kind of accidentally stumbled into these medications called SSRIs, or Selective Serotonin re uptake inhibitors. And they seem to boost the level of serotonin, which seems to make some depressed people better. So then by correlation, perhaps a lack of serotonin was the reason for their depression. And that's kind of we're just kind of trying things, throwing them out the wall. And if it raises your levels, you're fine. Because the thing is, you can't tell what your what the levels of neurotransmitters are in your body without a spinal tap. Because of that whole blood brain barrier. So there is no way for them to know what your chemical levels are like, and what your neurotransmitters are able to do. And so we just kind of throw things at a wall until they work. So just like on a very basic level, throwing these words around, when any part of your body wants to communicate with any other part of your body through your nervous system, it there's an electric charge that goes through the neuron. And then it gets to the end, where it releases a number of different neurotransmitter chemicals into the little space in between, they call that the synapse. And then they float around and they go over to the next neuron. And when they touch that there's receptors, and they kind of like, you know, the square one fits in the square hole, and this one fits in the circle hole. And they, they go in, and when they latch in there, that tells that neuron Oh, okay, so that's the thing we're doing, okay, cool, and then sends electrical signal down again. And so if you lack a certain type of, of neurotransmitter of chemical, then the transmission is less than good. And so like serotonin, we have found is really important for mood regulation, and for self control for energy. So like, we just assume that people who show these symptoms maybe lack these neurotransmitters. And when we do experiments where we boost them, pay, they get a little bit better. So we assume that they're connected, but we don't honestly know how. And it seems like there are some things having to do with maybe damage in the brain itself, or chemical levels. And then obviously, there's a part of it that's like learned that psychological where it's like you're dealing with trauma, and it's so complicated. And I wish it were as simple as just take a pill, and then you're fine. Me too, right? Ian and I are on the same medication. So we have some solidarity there.
 
Ian Binns  24:35
I feel like it's a hit or miss process.
 
Zack Jackson  24:37
And it really is and you don't know if it's going to work for like two weeks and then could either
 
Ian Binns  24:43
be okay or utterly miserable.
 
Zack Jackson  24:47
I was transitioning medications at the beginning of the pandemic. And then during Holy Week and Easter in a pandemic while transitioning medications with two small kids at home, and it was the Worst couple of months of my life, because all of my chemicals were thrown out out of balance because of that, you know, and then life itself circumstances were awful.
 
Adam Pryor  25:11
I feel like the short answer, whenever you end up talking about brain chemistry is like, it's not simple. Like, there should just be like an Asterix by every study about brain chemistry to be like, maybe
 
Rachael Jackson  25:27
for these particular people only.
 
Zack Jackson  25:30
Yeah, I mean, the future of this is in figuring out the genetic markers that cause certain things. Because we know that mental illness can be hereditary, I could trace the, the melancholia, in my own family, between, especially through the men in my family, and all of the men in my family chose to deal with it in different ways. Some of them through alcoholism, and secret vices, and some of them through religiosity and prayer. And some of them like me, through medication, and, and therapy, we kind of have all found ways of dealing with this thing that's gone through our bloodline. And my doctor tells me, you know, once we can isolate a bit better, which genetic markers are involved there, we can then just take a DNA test, and then they can create a medication for you, that is tailored to you. And so now it's just like, hey, here you go. Rachel made me a wonderful cross stitch, and sent it to me that says, If you can't make your own seratonin storebought is fine. And I love it and it's in, it's on my wall. Because I need that reminder, the storebought is fine. It's way more important to stay healthy than it is, even if I don't understand the process of it, even if it's like, I hate the fact that my happiness comes from a bottle, I should be able to do this on my own. I'm strong enough now that I don't need this anymore. And I've done this to a bunch of times where I've been like, well, I've been good for six months now. So I'm going to tell my doctor, I want to get off this medication. And then he'll be like, Well, okay, if you say so. And then I'll, I'll have a horrible regression. And then it will be like, Okay, we got to start again. And then it takes me a while to get back on. And it's just the whole thing, because my goal is to get off of the medication and to stop having to have my happiness in a bottle. But the problem is that depressive episodes are a bit like concussions in that every time you have one, it gets easier to have another and they last longer. And they're a little bit worse, actually. Jon Gruden, who's the department chair for Lopez and young. He studies long term effects of sustained stress in the depressive episodes. And he wrote that if you have too much stress and too high level of cortisol for too long, you start to destroy the very neurons that should regulate the feedback loop and turn down the cortisol levels after stress is resolved. Ultimately, this results in lesions to the hippocampus and to the amygdala, a loss of, of neural networking tissue, and the longer you remain in a depressed state, the more likely you are to have significant lesioning which can lead to peripheral neuropathy. Your vision starts to fade in all kinds of other things can go wrong, which reflects the obvious fact that we need to not only treat depression when it occurs, but also to prevent it from reoccurring. Our public health approach at the moment is just wrong. People with recurrent depression must stay on medication permanently not cycle on and off of it. Because beyond the unpleasantness of having to survive multiple painful depressive episodes, such people are actually ravaging their own neurological tissue.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  29:03
Hmm. Blood Pressure just spiked. Listening to that.
 
Ian Binns  29:10
My watch did tell me to take a breath,
 
Zack Jackson  29:12
your cortisol levels just went up hearing that and you need to find a way to get him back down again. Sustained stress is bad for you. There are natural ways, right? Y'all I'm sure have natural ways of calming yourself. Right. What do you all do when you're in this sustained periods of stress?
 
Rachael Jackson  29:38
I crossed it.
 
Zack Jackson  29:40
Yeah.
 
Adam Pryor  29:43
I ride my bicycle.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  29:47
I paced around the living room. physically exhausted myself.
 
Ian Binns  29:54
I will go out, sometimes about side. Sometimes I'll meditate. Though the Lego do a puzzle, something like that. I picked up golf again, on vacation. So there are times when I've gone to the driving range, if I have the time, I found while on vacation, there was a we always play when we're down there. And the last few times we've gone I haven't played I'd started to bring my old clubs that my dad gave me years ago. So they're very old. And we, I would play with play with my father in law and brother in law down there and I was hitting it pretty well. And it's just like, it's kind of fun. I'm not taking it seriously. I'm just out here enjoying myself and then one afternoon while we were there. It was a lot of downtime. We weren't doing anything. And so I just kind of look my wife and said, Honey, I think I want to go play nine holes by myself. You're out with it. She said sure. So I've called the course because I made some courses right there and they said Yeah, come on. So I went play nine holes by myself put my headphones in and listen to a podcast. And it was a great two hours. Like it really helped. And so we found that Wow, that's so now I bought a new set of clubs. not expensive though. But it's it's very therapeutic. And I found that it's nice for me to go out there and just do that this time for myself to think and and just or let go.
 
Zack Jackson  31:20
Yeah, well, I was gonna say I hear two themes that the neuroscientist Andrew Newberg has talked about a lot in his books, the the arousal and acquiescent systems in your body, the the ones that you get pumped up, and the ones that you get brought down. And in both of those, if you overdo it, you're the thinking part of your brain starts to shut down, as it focuses on just that part. And you get out of your spatial awareness you get out of your cognitive areas, the parts of your brain that are overthinking that are causing the feedback loop of cortisol to keep going. And so when you work yourself out, like on a bicycle, or walking or running, you're flooding your body with such high levels of these, these chemicals that it's like whoosh, wash afterwards, or if you're doing something repetitive, like cross stitch, or knitting, or golf, or meditation or something that does the opposite, that relaxes you so much that it gets you out of that, that cycle than that to, then once that stupid thinking part of your brain is done overthinking, then the natural parts can get through and flesh it all out. I mean, you see this in religious ritual, right? You either have things like tribal dances, right with the drums and the repetitious things, or you have something like a meditative, like the home, the sound of a slow Bell or something. You even see that that's the difference between modern Christian worship songs and old timey hymns is, is the same kind of deal. You're trying to either raise yourself up and do it an ecstatic state or bring yourself down into a lower state. But both of them are trying to get out of your own head to let your brain fix itself. And that's so important.
 
Rachael Jackson  33:17
I love I love that I love this idea of especially in religious contexts, without even necessarily knowing why we're doing those things, right, as you're saying those. In Judaism, there's a there's a word for it called a knee goon. And a goon is a wordless melody, or a repetitive, a few words melody that will come up frequently. And we'll just say the same thing for 235 minutes, it'll be the same thing. And there's really something very powerful about that. And so it's nice to know why it works.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  34:16
Think it's also really scary, like the people that I know who have depression and have tried, or are in the process of trying all the various medications and nothing's working. It's just scary to her. I feel very much for those people who want a medical solution and are not sure how to navigate like, at least in the meantime, until something works if something is going to work. Not everyone knows how to navigate like other activities to help manage those symptoms. And that When people become really desperate, and so, yeah, I just, I, I know that that is a very scary process for people to just mean it's hard to like go on antidepressants anyway, like it takes, there's an adjustment period and all of that, but for nothing to work, I know people who are like, you know, trying the last thing before they go into like anti psychotics. And that's a whole other category of drugs. That is very, I mean, like, you don't want to mess with that stuff, if you don't have to, because, you know, that's, you have a whole other set of issues that can come up with, with those things. And, yeah, it's just, it's a lot, it's a very confusing puzzle that for some people seems to like not really have a solution, except, you know, whatever it is that you can try, that makes life a little bit more manageable. And like, giving you that ability to reach, not not happiness so much, but like a state of equilibrium. It's like all people really want at that point.
 
Zack Jackson  36:15
There's some really exciting breakthroughs in transcranial magnetic stimulation. Previously, the last ditch option for people is to, like knock them out unconscious, and then electrocute them a bunch of times in the head, electrode thought shock therapy, it's silent and can lead to memory loss and all kinds of things. But this technique, which is been approved, but your insurance won't pay for it until you've tried, literally everything else takes off course, right? focused electromagnetic stimulation into very specific portions of your brain. So they do a brain scan first. So they can identify where exactly your how your brain is situated. And then they'll do these wonderful tests, where they'll like, they'll, they'll try to locate your like motor centers. And then like, once your hand twitches, they'll be like, oh, yep. Okay, so that's where that is. And then Okay, your nose switched, okay, that's where that is. And then they can triangulate where your mood centers will be. And then use this magnetic stimulation through, like this special hat, it looks like the kind of thing that you use at a like a beauty salon to dry your hair. And it just stimulates that one part. So it's really focused on just that one part. And it, it basically exercises it because the theory is that it's underdeveloped. And so it's like it's massaging it, and it's helping it to move and whatnot. And so you do this for every single day, it's a half hour sessions every day, for a month. And then after that, most people are fine. And they might need to come in for a tune up every couple years or so. But instead of like medication that increases the, the chemical levels in your, in the synapses, this goes straight to the brain, and tries to help massage an underdeveloped part. And it seems to be working really well. And there's a lot of new breakthroughs in the technology. And if insurance would catch up and help more people get it, then it would be it would be so helpful. But I love the fact that we discovered 1000s of years ago that you could electrocute your head and feel better and that we are still doing the same thing but with science.
 
Rachael Jackson  38:52
It was science back then, too. They just didn't know why.
 
Zack Jackson  38:56
I call it that. Yeah, he also used to use sting rays while the electric rays to cure hemorrhoids too. But I didn't look into the specifics of how that word
 
Rachael Jackson  39:08
awkward interesting.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  39:09
I have so many questions.
 
Rachael Jackson  39:12
I don't want to know the answers. I love this idea. And I think and without getting so much on that soapbox. I'm just moving past that conversation guys. Without getting so
 
Adam Pryor  39:26
jealous derailing. Like, no, no, no. That's all I'll do. I'll stop I'll stop
 
Rachael Jackson  39:35
is one of the challenges that we have in westernized medicine. And I'm framing it that way because I think even in places that have universal health care, which you know, America certainly needs to get on that bandwagon. But even in those places, it's still crisis management. It's not actually preventative or care. It's It's, it's all emergency medicine, it's all Something is wrong, let's treat what's wrong. Not let's actually figure this out way upstream. So the insurance industries, but also just our frame of mind of saying, we don't have to wait until we see where something is wrong, to try to help a person live the best life that we know they can live. And I think if we change our mentality with that, where we can catch up for a holistic perspective of what life can look like, will enable each other to to thrive in ways that we're not yet capable of. And then I also just want to respond to partly what you were saying, Zach, but not directly to you, but to the concept of this mental health and this, so several people very close in my life also suffer from deep clinical depression. And I suffer so and I have suffered from not clinical depression, but situational. And so it's very, very different than that. But having said that, when I look at our screen, three of us are wearing glasses, right? And we hear this idea, or you have said yourself, sack, you know, I wish, I just wish I wouldn't have to take it out of a bottle. And I wish, you know, I could just find happiness this way. And we've learned that health is health, regardless of whether it's mental health or physical health or emotional health, health, spiritual health, right? It's health. And if we're unhealthy, then we need to do whatever it takes to get us healthy. And none of us are going to be like, Oh, I just wish my eyes would work. And I'm just not gonna wear my glasses today. Because maybe today will be the day that they just decide to work. Maybe today, I'll wake up and my, my astigmatism will magically mend itself. We never ask a person to make that kind of ridiculous jump. And that because we recognize that that's just not going to happen. I'm never going to not need my glasses. Unless perhaps I go through some sort of surgery, in which case, it may or may not help it, but probably not like, especially with my astigmatism, I'm always going to need glasses. And, and there's nothing wrong with that. And so I think if we get to the point of as a society, and then hopefully internally to say, okay, so there's something going on with the physical part that we don't fully understand. We don't know why this is happening. We don't know why this part of your brain needs to massage or is underdeveloped, or these chemicals are or are not working. We don't have the why yet. But if we can get to a point of at least saying, great, we have something that's working. Why make a person feel bad about that. And don't expect yourself to be any different tomorrow. Adam, you don't like this?
 
Adam Pryor  43:19
Wow. You know, like no
 
Rachael Jackson  43:22
poker face.
 
Adam Pryor  43:22
I'm not on board with like shaming people about mental health. Let me start there. That's not okay. Clear? Yep. I'm on board like, okay, so like, usually when I disagree with you, it's just like, full like, No, it's not that
 
Ian Binns  43:42
nobody can see, can I stop just for a minute? Can you make sure you include all of that in this transition? Cuz fumbling is is awesome. Sorry. So
 
Adam Pryor  43:52
here. This is what I wonder about though, right? Because I like the I like the eyeglasses analogy, right? So nobody says I'm going to wake up in the morning be like, Ah ha, today, I won't wear my glasses, and my eyes will work. But also, right, like, this is a problem that's really well explained by the reductionism of science. Right? Why do I put a lens in front of my eye because I have a very clear understanding of how the light is refracting into the wrong spot. Right
 
Rachael Jackson  44:21
now, but 500 years ago, we didn't
 
Adam Pryor  44:24
know but those pieces of being able to answer the why and the development of the technology were much more parallel than what's going on here. And I think this is the place where I look at I go like, I wonder if issues of mental health fall into a very different category, because I'm not sure there is a good reductionist answer to the why. Like, there's a little part of me that says, like, is this a problem at which science starts to break down in its investigation, because the rules of how science investigates things can't ask all the right questions
 
Rachael Jackson  45:03
while still living within an hour, an ethical and moral way of treating human beings. Absolutely,
 
Adam Pryor  45:08
absolutely. Right. Right. But even I mean look like even if you do some of the things that aren't moral or ethical, you may run into some fundamental problems were because these issues, bridge that element of the reductive descriptive nature of neurotransmitters, and big feelings. You know, as my teenager is having, right? There's some, there's some drugs that should be invented for puberty, I've decided
 
Ian Binns  45:48
a couple of years.
 
Adam Pryor  45:51
So this is like, I do sort of wonder like, does this become a space, particularly in things like religion and science conversation, where it doesn't follow the neat categories that we have to talk about that. And I think the the hope, especially in Western culture, is that we've put in medical science to be able to do those sorts of things, or are in to heal in very specific ways, the bounds of what that means are really stretched in this case, which, you know, only adds to the feeling of anxiety and depression in the situation.
 
Zack Jackson  46:54
So what has been your experience from the religious side of depression?
 
Adam Pryor  47:02
I actually wanted to ask you Zack, like, do you use any, like, specific religious traditions?
 
Zack Jackson  47:09
In what way
 
Adam Pryor  47:10
in terms of thinking about ways of, of managing or, or trying to address those feelings of depression,
 
Zack Jackson  47:18
or when you're talking about managing religions have done a great job with that, I mean, they always talk about doing yoga, for example, doing something to get into your body, or meditation, something to get into your mind. prayer and whatnot. You know, I, personally, I've said this before, too, it's kind of my religious tradition, when I was discovering my depression said that you're too blessed to be stressed, and that depression is a problem for atheists and not for Christians. And, you know, so I know I've worked with, I've worked with my therapist on this, I know that those things are not true. I find more comfort in looking at some of the people in Scripture, like Jeremiah, for example, the weeping prophet literally wrote a book of the Bible called Lamentations. All he does is cry. He is a sad emo boy, who felt so deeply the destruction of Jerusalem, that he couldn't help but weep and his weeping became the song of a generation, and helps other people to deal with the trauma that they were experiencing. And it's something that probably only someone who feels the depths of despair like that can can do. And so like God using him, not in spite of his depression, but because of it was something it's just important for me to, to help categorize my feelings, give them validity.
 
Rachael Jackson  49:01
I'll add to the religious side to that. In our tradition, it's not necessarily taboo. And it my heart just hurts hearing this idea too blessed to be to be depressed, like it just is revolting. But also we have this term called Shonda, right? It's public shame. So don't talk about it. We're not going to tell you you don't have it. Y'all feel it, but we don't talk about it. And that's where I've decided to make a big change, right saying no, absolutely. We talk about it and using those subtle signs as well as the obvious science, like on my bulletin board in my office, I have, you know, the here's the suicide hotline, business card, and here's the phone number for Nami. National Alliance of mental instant National Alliance of Mental Health Institute, something of that and on my bookshelf, like it's here's the Here's how Judaism and depression looks right. Like I make it very obvious. And then when I talk in my classes and my sermons, I totally talk about it. Right? My sermons at least once a year or during the big holidays, I talk about mental health this year included in this year, I'm using King Solomon. Right? I mean, Zack, right in Jeremiah, I think King Solomon, who wrote the book of Ecclesiastes, he is right, all is futile. You kidding me? Right? Like, all is futility? utter futility. Right? Like there's an entire chapter on how utterly futile all of life is you telling me he's healthy? That is not the sign of a healthy, well rounded person who's saying these things, right? There's existential issues going on. So recognizing that they exist in our tradition, and that we should talk about it right? daska, like, we have to talk about these things. And I think that's the role that science has made that religion can play is allowing people to explore this need of themselves and encouraging them to utilize the best science that exists. To find this way I love the word they can do use equilibrium at a bare minimum, and then hopefully grow from that point.
 
Ian Binns  51:20
But how do we reach those who mean we talk about instant places in the Bible, that based on how we interpret it shows that you don't need to have shame? If you suffer from depression, or you have depression, right? And yet, the Bible is still as we know, with everything, right, the Bible is still used to instill shame on some people. So reaching the individuals who still feel shame because of someone else, telling them the Bible suggests it. And I know I'm majorly paraphrasing, making this easy, or simplifying it, but those are the people that need to be reached. Right? And we need to be helped.
 
Rachael Jackson  52:08
And I think the best that we can do is try to make broad, build those bridges of making that happen. Right, that I'm not the person who would have ever said those things I'm right, that that would never, that would never be my way of thinking. Right? But if I can't reach out, they're not coming to me, perhaps I can reach someone who is talking to them. Right that, that in my way of saying these things, I am opening doors for people to open other doors for other people to come in. Right? That that that's that's our way of reaching people that don't want to be reached also is not through us talking. But it's through the overlap. Got to bring in a Venn diagram sometime today. I can't talk directly to the said person. But perhaps we share a person in common that would then say, hey, look at this, here's an alternative to what you've learned. So I don't know if that?
 
Ian Binns  53:11
Does. That's my first
 
Rachael Jackson  53:12
offensive.
 
Ian Binns  53:14
No, no, no. I think part of the issue we're dealing with here too, though, around mental health, and something that we can address throughout this series is that, you know, if you pull back from the role of the Bible, there's a major stigma in this country around mental health. And I know there are elsewhere but let's just focus on where we are right now. But there's this whole notion that if you have struggle with your mental health in some way that you're not supposed to talk about it, because of the shame associated with that. And then we see the number of military personnel or retirees who you know, it's like 20 or 22, who take their lives every single day. Because they're, you know, taught that and a lot of them are typically men, and they're taught that you know, you're supposed to be a hardened warrior. So you can't talk about these these touchy feely things, and then they end up dead right? We lost that workout group I'm part of that three. I did not know him that well. We met a few times he took his life about a month ago. Because and people were shocked people were like, I have no idea I had no idea is struggling I had no idea that struggling and I didn't know him that well. I'm certain the signs were there but we don't know to look for them if because of the shame he he may have felt but that stereotypically goes with mental health is that that's one of things i've you know, Zack as I've once we met and as we got to know each other, I've always appreciated how on Facebook when you talk about your struggles with depression in your, in your journey with your depression, that you have equated it to things like us. Or arm or something with your heart or something that people tend to talk more freely about than they do if it's something with your brain, right, and that is just another part of your body. So that's that I approach it a lot that way ever since I saw you do that. I thought that made a lot of sense, right? Yeah. And so it's, and we've had many conversations on the show about who is the real me, based on the meal medication or the Minato medication.
 
Zack Jackson  55:30
You know, one of my favorite things about the Bible as a whole. Both the Hebrew and Christian versions is that unlike most ancient texts, it doesn't seek to idealize people. Like, if you if you're Reading about some Babylonian king from the Babylonian texts, you'll read all about how handsome he is, and how muscley he is and how he never loses and how he's God's favorite person, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like you read about King Saul, or David or Solomon or like, like David is lifted up as the greatest King ever. And he's written all these songs, and he's such great guy, but man, the Bible tells you all about all the awful things that he's also not. Right. So like the gospels were written by the or supervised by Jesus's disciples. And so they're the ones writing this book, and they are portrayed as such nincompoops in there. Like, they did not try to sugarcoat themselves, they presented themselves as they are. So you can read this. And you can see yourself in it. And you don't see some idealized version that you can never live up to. You see people who struggle, people who are honest, sometimes up How about what they're feeling, and how they're struggling what they're dealing with. And then you see a God that is still good. And that uses, uses their weakness, as as their strength as their superpower. And that is one of the overarching themes of Scripture, as always been that that's why I have these two scripture verses tattooed on my wrists that the one is from Psalm 33, I believe that he spoken all things came into being and the other ones revelation. At, behold, I'm making all things new, that the beginning and the end of the story of the Christian scriptures anyway, begins with his creation on both ends, that it's taking the old in the broken and making something beautiful with it, like, like a mosaic, and not just shaking up the edges sketch and starting over again, because this one got broken. I love that. And I need that, as somebody who dwells in darkness on the regular. That's actually how I met Rachel, was I said that story about how the Bible begins and ends with creation. And she said, whose Bible? my Bible doesn't end that way. And I was like, this person, this person is going to be my best friend, but it's gonna be great. My life is so much richer, because she's in it. Oh, hey, Rachel, I didn't see you there.
 
Rachael Jackson  58:34
I want to say thank you for taking us down this journey. And for being again, so open and vulnerable with us. Not just the five of us, but anyone who's listening and anyone who feels like we can share this. That we can really share this with others. So please do so right. Even if even if you've never shared an episode or a podcast before with someone, I think having this open conversation about struggles is really important. So please feel free to share this and any other episode.
 
Zack Jackson  59:13
I just want to say one final thing as we as we wrap up that and then to read you a poem that I discovered that the goal as we often see, it is pure bliss, and hope and joy and laughter and all the good things. And we imagine that mental health is some mental illness is something that is keeping us from that pure bliss and only if only we had just the right combination, we would be happy all the time. And we think of hope as something so blessed and wonderful and I want to affirm the grittiness of life and of you the listener and you my fellow hosts and to say that Sometimes life is dirty and the bloody and is still is beautiful. And so I wanted to finish this by Reading a poem by a poet named Caitlin seda. That's called hope is not a bird, Emily, it's a sewer rat. This is directed at Emily Dickinson, who wrote a lovely poem about how hope is this flattering bird that comes in on the wind and I found this one to be much more inspirational. Also, there's a couple of expletives in there. And so, if you're listening, and you're a child, maybe plug your ears. Also, if you're a child, you're a super cool kid for listening to this podcast so good on you. Okay.
 
Adam Pryor  1:00:48
And probably you don't need to plug your ears at this point.
 
Zack Jackson  1:00:54
Hope is not the thing with feathers that comes home to roost when you need it most. Hope is an ugly thing. With teeth and claws and patchy fur that seems some shit. It's what thrives in the discards and survives in the ugliest parts of our world, able to find a way to go on when nothing else can even find a way in. It's the gritty, nasty little carrier of such diseases as optimism, persistence, perseverance, and joy. transmissible as it drags its tail across your path and bites you in the ass. Hope is not some delicate, beautiful bird, Emily. It is a lowly sewer rat. That snorts pesticides, like there were lines of coke, and still shows up on time to work the next day, looking no worse for the wear,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore  1:01:52
huh. Now I want to cross stitch of that monster, that monster
 
Adam Pryor  1:02:03
feels like one that could go in my office. snore snorts lines of coke and shows up for work the next day, who's pull that right.
 
Rachael Jackson  1:02:28
And on a different note, we have decided this year, year three of our podcast at the end of every episode, each one of us is going to share something. And one of the things that I Rachel love to share our stories from my tradition. And so I hope that you enjoy this story this week. And next week, we are going to be so excited to hear from one of the other hosts and each week, we will rotate what our story is. Sometimes it will be connected to what we are talking about. And sometimes it won't. So stay tuned for the end of every episode and let us know what you think. Today I wanted to share a story with you about prayer. And just a note about many Jewish Oh folktales whatever, they always have men as the primary. So if you've heard this story, I'm just gonna change the gender because I don't think men get up all the fun. So just putting that one out there. So once upon a time, no, not really. One day. There is a farmer in the field. And she is tilling away. And she's working really hard because every farmer I've ever met works really hard sunup sundown 365. incredibly hard work. And this person, because she is a farmer, she doesn't have time to study. She doesn't have time to pray. She doesn't have time to be a learned scholar. She does the best she can. She prays to God, whenever she needs to, in whatever way she feels she can one day or very learned scholar comes along, is driving his carriage and he stops and he sees her praying in the fields and he says, What are you doing? And she says, I'm praying. And he responds, you can't pray right now it is not the time for prayer here. Let me teach you. And she says, okay, I've always wanted to be a good Jew. I've always wanted to be a good pray er, and so she agrees. And this very learned scholar comes and lives with her and in the house. And every day for six months. He teaches her When to pray, what words to pray, how to pray exactly the right things, to do the choreography, when to bow, when to shuffle all this stuff when she learns it, because she's a great student. And then he says, Thank you for giving me this opportunity to teach you the right way to pray. And then he moves on. And he leaves the house, and she is still a farmer, tilling the soil every day harvesting and reaping when necessary. And day after day, she slowly forgets she forgets, is it two steps forward? Or three steps forward? And then how many steps back Do I have to take? And do I go left first or right first, I don't know which way to bow. And she starts getting confused. And she starts getting upset because she knows she's doing it wrong. And so she stops praying. And she no longer goes out into the field and says the prayer of her heart. She no longer prays when she's moved to. And that's how she lives her life. And the learned scholar dies. And he goes up and he meets God. And God says, What did you do? to this farmer, he went, God, I taught her. She was such a good student. She learned she learned all the prayers. And after six months, I felt my job was done. And I moved on. He said, I thought I was doing exactly what you God would have wanted me to do. And God responds, how dare you? How dare you. She has not prayed a day since you told her that she did it wrong. She was my best prayer every day, she would pray to me. And she poured out her heart to me. But you came along and told her she did it wrong. And now she hasn't prayed. That is not your role. How dare you. What we learned from this is even if we have all the rights and the rituals, the smells, and the bells and the choreography, there is no right or wrong. The best prayers are the ones that are genuine, whether they be written down, or whether they be in our hearts, whether they be a prescribed times, or it's spontaneous ones. The ones that affect us are the ones that we feel there is no wrong way to pray.
 
Zack Jackson  1:07:49
This has been Episode 90 of the down the wormhole podcast. If you enjoy this podcast would you do us a favor and share it with your friends. That's a simple way that you can help our third year to be our best year yet. Thanks also to our Patreon supporters for helping us to make this podcast happen. If you'd like to donate to the cause, you can find us@patreon.com slash down the wormhole podcast. We'll be back in two weeks as Ian helps us to understand the science and spirituality of anxiety and how mindfulness meditation has helped him to persevere. We'll see you then.

Palmer Seminary Science and Religion Symposium (Oct 1 and 2)

We're back with new episodes starting next week, but in the meantime, we want to make sure that you are all aware of the incredible science and religion symposium that is happening this weekend at Palmer Seminary. Zack has put a lot of time and energy into making sure that this is an event that is worth your time. Check out the website to register for in-person or online space. It will be recorded and available after the fact as well, but make sure that you register to get the link! 
 
https://www.palmerseminary.edu/science