Down the Wormhole

RE-RELEASE: DtW Goes to the Movies (Star Trek: Generations)

While we are hard at work on the next season, we are re-releasing some of our favorite episodes. Way back at the beginning of this awful pandemic when everyone was stuck inside binging on Netflix, we did a series on some of our favorite movies. This episode was simultaneously spiritually uplifting, raucously funny, and somewhat NSFW (depending on your tolerance for eyeball hooks and heavenly orgies). If you haven't seen Star Trek: Generations, make sure you watch it before listening or else much of this will make no sense! 
 
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More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
 

RE-RELEASE: Conflict Language (Who‘s Authority is it Anyway?)

While we are hard at work on the next season, we are re-releasing some of our favorite episodes. This one was our fifth episode way back on September 4th 2019. When we recorded this, we had no idea how the battle for scientific and religious authority would devolve into a battle for our very lives. Should we trust the institutions that created these vaccines? Should we trust our religious leaders who claim to speak for God? Should we trust what the internet has to say about health when we can't even trust it to tell us the truth about the hit 90's cartoon, Street Sharks? 
 
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Produced by Zack JacksonMusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
PS - Zack's audio did not record properly, so we had to use the backup recording which is why it sounds so bad compared to the others. 
Show Notes:
Street Sharks and the problem with history:https://www.geek.com/tech/how-i-used-lies-about-a-cartoon-to-prove-history-is-meaningless-on-the-internet-1656188/
The definitive guide to the Denver Airport conspiracy:https://www.denverpost.com/2016/10/31/definitive-guide-to-denver-international-airport-conspiracy-theories/
Hawaii Telescope Project, Long Disputed, Will Begin Construction:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/science/hawaii-telescope-tmt-mauna-kea.html
The Oven of Akhnai:https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.59b.1?ven=William_Davidson_Edition_-_English&lang=bi
Note from Zack: After editing the past few episodes, I realized that I've mentioned Thomas Paine at least five or six thousand times. This is because I just finished a massive biography on him, and have had no one to process it with. I do apologize and will henceforth make every effort to diversify my 18th/19th century pop culture references in future episodes. I will leave you with this gem from the October 1783 edition of The Onion...https://www.theonion.com/historical-archives-i-cannot-help-that-women-are-oft-a-1819584502

RE-RELEASE: Human Origins (Did Neanderthals go to Heaven?)

While we are hard at work on the next season, we are re-releasing some of our favorite episodes. This one originally aired on January 15th, 2020.
 
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Our Human Origins miniseries keeps rolling as we explore the implications of art, social structures, and burials among Neanderthals and early Homo Sapiens in the Stone Age (specifically about 65,000 BCE to 10,000 BCE). How much can we infer from the clues they left behind? What of the small idols that predate all known religions by 15,000 years? Was God speaking to early humans like God speaks today? Are we making too much out of too little? Why does spirituality always seem to pop up whenever humans are around? 
 
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More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
 

RE-RELEASE: Dr Scott the Paleontologist (Re-Enchanting the Natural World)

While we get the next season of DtW ready, we are re-releasing some of our favorite episodes. This one was especially fun.
 
This episode originally aired on June 16th 2020
 
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We are thrilled to welcome Dr Scott Sampson to the DtW podcast! Those of you with small children probably know him best as Dr Scott the Paleontologist from Dinosaur Train, but there is so much more to him than time traveling cartoon dinosaurs! In his book, "How to Raise a Wild Child", he explains how he left his dream job in academia and devoted his life to spreading the love of science and nature to the next generation, because unless we become a people who love and understand our world, we're doomed. We get into some of the teaching strategies that he has developed to help all of you parents who suddenly became home-school teachers, as well as practical ways to grow emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. He casts a vision in which humankind rediscovers their love of the natural world, develops technology in tandem with it, and becomes a force for good for the sake of all living things. All that to say, it's no accident that the answers to life, the universe, and everything are contained within episode 42. 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 

RE-RELEASE: Big Emotions (Awe and Asparagus Urine)

Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 

Medical Ethics Part 5 (Death)

Episode 89
Despite the fact that all living things die, most people refuse to talk about it until it directly affects them. That's too bad, because planning for death can make living so much more vibrant. In this episode, we talk about physician assisted dying, guerilla funerals, the importance of ritual, and the nature of life itself. 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
 
 
 
Zack Jackson 00:05
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are
 
Adam Pryor 00:15
My name is Adam Pryor. I work at Bethany College in Lindsborg Kansas. I hope that when I die, someone will put me in the mushroom burial suit invented by Jim Ray Lee
 
Ian Binns 00:27
Ian Binns Associate Professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. And see I would be cremated and put into the hilt of the first real lightsaber.
 
Rachael Jackson 00:41
Rachael Jackson Agoudas, Israel congregation Hendersonville, North Carolina, and after I die, I want a traditional Jewish burial. So buried in some sort of decomposing box, I don't really care if it's pine or cardboard. And, yeah, just to be buried in the ground, nothing just simple.
 
Zack Jackson 01:06
Zack Jackson, UCC pastor and Reading Pennsylvania, and when I die, I want to be composted.
 
Rachael Jackson 01:13
Kendra Holt-Moore, PhD candidate at Boston University, and when I die, I want half of my body to be pressed into a gemstone that will become an heirloom of my family. And the other half of my body will be buried in one of those tree pods that grows into a forest. I can't remember the name of the person who invented these tree pods. But it's a similar idea, I think, to the mushroom suit, but you become a forest of death.
 
Adam Pryor 01:44
That is oddly specific.
 
Zack Jackson 01:48
Yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful story in Greek mythology about that,
 
Ian Binns 01:52
with the force of a point out that all of you all y'all came up with something? Like somewhat reasonable. I mean, I just wanted to play. How cool would that be, instead of being like, displayed on someone's, you know, mantle in a box, or an urn that can be displayed as a lightsaber hilt?
 
Zack Jackson 02:14
There you go. Or I can just give my carbon back to the earth that sustained me. Yeah, see, I
 
Ian Binns 02:20
mean, that's probably what will happen. But I wanted to fantasize
 
Adam Pryor 02:23
I'm hung up on the gemstones.
 
Ian Binns 02:26
Okay. Kendrick, Tell us. Tell us about
 
Zack Jackson 02:29
death. And which, which half of you is going to be a gemstone I want? I'll leave that up to
 
02:36
the left half.
 
Adam Pryor 02:37
Is it like? Like, certain parts? Are you? The person chopping you up? I thought they would like, without the ashes. That's not what I envisioned no harm. And how about foot?
 
Zack Jackson 02:59
That's absolutely the way this has to go. Now. It's like, Don't cremate and turn you into a diamond. Let's just take like your arms or legs and squish them.
 
Ian Binns 03:08
Yeah, let's just squeeze them all together. You're going to create a gemstone,
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 03:12
whichever parts would make the best gems.
 
03:22
Oh, yeah. I guess
 
Rachael Jackson 03:28
it's as good as it's gonna get. Um, yeah, so we're talking about death today. And there's so much that we could talk about. So let me just say that. I think that death is a pretty fun subject to talk about, mostly because a lot of my own work is about at least implicitly. So it's just so a lot of the stuff that I do comes out of this social psychological theory called terror management theory. And that's terror. Not what people often Yeah, terror. Some people hear me say that and they think I am saying Tara, marriage management theory or like Tarot management theory. But no, it's terror. t e r, r o r, like, you're terrified.
 
Ian Binns 04:19
I do like to Taro. Sounds kind of cool.
 
Rachael Jackson 04:24
Yeah, that's a different thing. But terror management theory is a theory that was first proposed in the 80s by a social psychologist, and the whole there's, there's a lot that has been done over the last several decades on it. But the basic idea is that when people are primed to think about death, or they're exposed to some kind of trigger that causes them to reflect on death, and there are explicit and implicit ways of doing this, but basically, these Death triggers or what they would call mortality salience triggers. And they they make us more defensive. And these defense mechanisms can look a lot of different ways. But the basic idea is that like, people don't want to die, whether we're talking about physical death, or even like, a more like metaphorical figurative kind of death. So think, you know, apart from dying in your body, maybe you're also another kind of death would be like, total social isolation and exclusion, that's the kind of like social death. So there's something that is not, we're not just talking about, like physical death, even though that's a huge part of it. But also, you know, a kind of ego death, if you will, where, what it means to be human, the connectedness we feel in community, like there are ways of dying, that disconnect us from those pieces of what it means to be human as well. So anyway, terror management theory is something that touches on all these different kinds of death, and shows how people become more defensive of the things that are meaningful to them, or the things that make us feel like we have a purpose and a sense of significance in the world. And when we don't have those things, those ties of significance, those like foundational building blocks of meaning and community and purpose, that we are a lot more vulnerable to, like psychological dysfunction, and other forms of dysfunction and even death. And so there's, you know, all kinds of ways of, of testing this, but just to give like, one example of what this means is, there was a study years ago, where a group of researchers, they, they took a group of Christians, and they divided the Christians and half and half of the Christians were exposed to some kind of mortality salience, or like death trigger. And usually, that's a couple of questions where you're being asked explicitly to reflect on what you think about death, like what you think will happen to your body when you die, stuff like that. And then the other half of the Christians, were not asked those questions. And then all of the Christians were brought back together and given a series of questionnaires in which they were asked to evaluate an out group, in this case that outgroup was another separate group of Jewish people. And what they found was that the Christian group who had been exposed to the mortality salience trigger, that they had a slightly harsher evaluations against the the Jewish group, than the the half of the Christians that were not exposed to a death trigger. And so this is like, first of all, just say, this has nothing to do with like, like, implicit, like, inherently being like Christian or Jewish, like you could have put in like, Canadian American, like any kind of like identifier. But this goes to show that, like, religion is often a very, like salient and important and strong form of identification for people. But what this showed was that, you know, whenever we're threatened in some way, with these, like ideas of data that we really, we want to like, strengthen our in group markers, and we become a little bit more suspicious of ideas or people or communities that are different from us, or that threaten what we see as like the nature of the universe, the order of the cosmos. And so this is just like one example and hundreds of studies that have been done at this point that that show this idea, and like I said, you could do this with a number of things, but I chose the, the religious example because of, well, what are conversations usually turned to so the point though, is just to say, like, we, as people, we think about death a lot, and we a lot of what we do in our lives, we're trying to like, make, you know, make meaning and like find a sense of belonging in the world, and that death is just like part of being human. And it's something that at some point, we will have to think about more explicitly, and have to really reckon with and so that is just like some background I guess, into like, why this this last episode. In our What is the serious medical ethics? Is that loosely That is correct. But yeah, just to give a little background unto like, how to like orient to this conversation about like the nature of death, the concept of death and how it how it can be a really powerful motivator of, of human behavior. And so, yeah, I guess, like one of the, one of the stories that I was thinking about, and this is sort of transitioning to a slightly different direction than what I was just talking about, but I was thinking a lot about the Death with Dignity movement, this week. And that, for those who don't know, like, there's a lot of, I think, every year, there's still like, ongoing discussion and debate about how this looks in policy. But the state of Oregon was the first state to implement a policy, I can't remember the year, if anyone knows that off the top of their, their head, for Feel free to say, but we can find that later. But they, Oregon was the first state to implement a policy in which people who were terminally ill were are able to ask for a lethal dose of medication to end their lives, so that they don't have to suffer. And that they, you know, the The purpose of this policy was to give terminally ill patients a sense of control, and a sense of, you know, dignity and normalcy in their last days with family. And so the, the story that I had read long ago was a woman named Brittany Maynard, or main art, I'm not sure exactly how to say her name, but she, she died by this voluntary lethal dose of medication on, I think, in 2014. But before that, she had been diagnosed with an aggressive brain cancer, and she was 29. And she and her husband, you know, they were young, and there, they knew that there was nothing that was going to save her. And brain cancer is, you know, just, it's a, like a horrifying thing to go through, and would lead to a lot of suffering and a lot of deterioration in her body and in her, like, mental capability and personality, and she didn't want her family to have to watch her suffer that way. And she didn't want to, sorry, my mind's going on here. And she had didn't want to suffer that way. And so she and her husband established residency in Oregon, so that she could participate in the death with dignity. Act. And so anyway, this, this has led to a lot of conversations, and in a lot of different like religious communities and, and medical communities about like, what this means, like, what are the implications of something like this? And this is just like one example in, in medicine have like, conversations about death. Like, there are other things that, you know, we could talk about, like, defining what death even is, because that has changed over the years as well. But I was thinking a lot about this conversation, because there's something that seems almost like paradoxical I guess about it, you know, and I think that's part of what the controversy brings out is, we feel like, you know, especially many people from religious communities who say, well, all life is sacred, and we should, you know, stand by the sanctity of human life and things like that. And so how does something like the Death with Dignity act, violate that principle, or even, you know, uphold it? And, and so, I just wanted to, like, make that our example and to maybe see, especially like, the clergy in the room, what if, what this has looked like in your communities, if this is something that you've come across, and how that conversation has, has played out? Because when I think about it, I, I think a lot about how, you know, and in, you know, like my academic work, what it means to look at something like the death of dignity, like assisted suicide issue and how that is a way of, like fighting death, or, like, Is it a way of fighting death or giving into death? I think that's sort of the Controversy here and that there's like, a lot of different ways to sort of analyze and interpret what this very personal decision actually means. And it's just so interesting because you, you can, you can really understand it, I think from several different angles, that it, it's like a fight against the suffering and the humiliation that the dying process can bring. So that you, you know, maybe like, remain in your friends and family's memories as a vital, like healthy person. Whereas other people see it as like maybe as a kind of giving up. And it's just like, so it's such a personal issue. And so, so yeah, that's, that's what I wanted to just sort of set on the table to get us get us going.
 
16:02
These are really great things that you're talking about Kendra. And I will say that I have taught about dignity and death from a Jewish perspective. And I want to throw in a couple couple, you post a couple of dichotomies. And I think there's far more there, there's several others dichotomies as well. And so just want to look at that, when we think about death, dignity in dying, right, which is a better terminology than physician assisted suicide. Right, we're giving somebody dignity? Well, we asked, we have to ask ourselves the questions that in the last 100 years, we have progressed and our medical intervention in such incredible ways that we prolong people's lives. Right, I mean, that's vaccines, antibiotics, surgery, right, just simple things like that, that have prolonged people's life. So from from my perspective, there's really this question of our way of prolonging suffering and the suffering part of life and what part of it right so those those pieces and I, I feel I have to live into the roles that I have set up for myself, and I want to share a story. If that is okay, this comes from comes from Tom but of course, because that's where I like to quote a lot of and everyone wants the full full citation Babylonian Talmud traffic to boat page 104 eight. And this, this will lead into part of the conversation that I was thinking. I made servants of Rabbi Yehuda hanasi went through the roof and said, the upper realms are requesting the presence of Rabbi Yehuda hanasi. And the lower realms are requesting the presence of Rabbi Yehuda hanasi. May it be the will of God that the lower world should impose their will upon the upper worlds. However, when she saw how many times he would enter the bathroom, remove his phylacteries exit, put them back on and how he was suffering so with his intestinal disease, she said, may it be the will of God that the upper world should impose their will upon the lower worlds, and the sages, meanwhile, would not be silent, meaning they would not refrain from begging for mercy so that Rabbi Yehuda hanasi would not die. So she took a jug through it from the roof to the ground. And due to the sudden noise, the sages were momentarily silent and refrain from their begging of mercy. And at that moment, Rabbi Yehuda hanasi died. So we use this and modernity we use this story to say, Who are we doing this for? Who are we prolonging the life and therefore the suffering for? Is it because we can't bear to let this person die? Or is it because that's what is necessary? So that's, that's one way we use this story. The second way we use this understanding is from an ethical standpoint. medical ethics has this idea of personal autonomy, resources, my use of adequate resources and do no harm non maleficence. If a person is clearly suffering, is it not the job of the physician to do no harm? Right? So we really ask we really have to under Stand are we causing harm by allowing someone to live? So having said that, a couple of case questions that I was thinking about, if there is a person who has, you know, the example that Kendra gave, right? So this woman has a brain tumor. Let's say she now develops completely Incidentally, just randomly has nothing to do with the brain tumor, she develops severe bronchitis that turns into aspirational pneumonia. Right? Do you treat the pneumonia? Not rhetorical. Do you treat the pneumonia? Not we're not again, we're not touching the brain. We're not doing anything, do you treat pneumonia?
 
Ian Binns 20:50
I would still defer to the patient's wishes. I said, if the patient says, Hey, I don't want you to treat my pneumonia, and then argue against that? Well, probably, especially if I've made the decision that I'm going to continue on with my life as long as I possibly can until the cancer finally gets me, then yeah, I would treat it
 
Zack Jackson 21:20
as a doctor, you do what the patient wants. But if it were me, I don't know if I would, I might see that as a grace. Pender Adam,
 
Rachael Jackson 21:33
I guess it depends how much time I thought I had left. But I'm inclined to answer I guess similarly to to Zack, that maybe I would if I, if I still had like a good bit of quality of life left. So yeah, I guess I would lean more towards Yes.
 
Adam Pryor 21:57
I don't have enough information to decide. No, I do like information you have. So no, like. So like, what I think about are the answer I might give to that question look very different when I am 29 versus 39 versus 49. versus 59. It looks really different depending on what my familial situation looks like. And to me, it also looks really different based on the this specific type of brain cancer and its prognosis. So there's, there's a spectrum of I might answer yes or no.
 
22:44
could go either way. What about you, Rachel? Either way, if I were the patient, in this case, I would not treat the pneumonia.
 
Ian Binns 22:55
Can you explain why?
 
22:57
Yeah. If I know I'm going to die soon, right? We're all going to die. But if I know that I'm going to die, and it's going to be a terrible dying experience. I wouldn't want to leave that for anyone including myself. Pneumonia is considered old man's friend. Right?
 
Zack Jackson 23:19
Right. That's why I mentioned it. I see it as a grace. Yeah, but I would still want it. Not to be cured. But I feel like I would want some kind of comfort, at least in it. Recently drowning
 
23:33
you aren't? Yeah, you I mean, that's the difference, right? You can cure most people. I shouldn't say most times, pneumonia has the ability to be cured. Right. It's not an automatic death sentence if you get pneumonia, but there are plenty of symptom relief things that you can also take, you know, also just like, have enough morphine that you don't care for feel any of it. I bring this up because there are real life examples. Right there real life, right? There's a there's a response that that we look at responses, the Jewish way of saying, Hey, I have this question that doesn't actually have an answer. Hey, rabbis, can you give me an answer, where it talks about a 95 year old woman who has Alzheimer's, severe, severe Alzheimer's? And they compare that to a 16 month old who has severe cannabis disease? Right, both of them will die within the year. What do you do with them? Does their happiness matter does how long they live matter? What matters when we make these decisions? And who is making these decisions? Right in the case that Kendra provided for the death and dignity, the patient themselves is making the call. Oftentimes, when we are faced with questions like this, the patient themselves is not the one capable of making that call, for one reason or another again, in terms of the death, they did In Oregon and Washington, Oregon, I just looked at my notes that was 97. Washington was oh nine. So both those two states habit, and in those cases, the patient themselves must be the one it cannot be a guardian. And there's lots of doctors involved and psychologists and it has to be a hospice situation of six months or less verified by multiple doctors. I mean, it's really above board. This is not the 1990s Kevorkian questions, which is a different question entirely. But I know that that's clouded. Those of us that remember those years very differently than these laws in Washington and Oregon, Washington State and Oregon? Um, I think it's, I think it's all of those pieces. And then when we look at the question of what are we doing for prolonging life, if someone you know, what is death? And I so let me just answer that real quickly. I know I'm jumping all around. And for our listeners, I apologize that I'm just sort of chunking my statements here, I unfortunately will have will have to exit and leave this wonderful conversation. So I just want to put in a couple more thoughts.
 
Zack Jackson 26:08
Without Rachel, it's gonna turn dark,
 
26:10
it's gonna get dark, it might turn it gets dark. So I'll have to listen to your statements when they come out, then.
 
26:22
Um, what what do we classify as death A long time ago, it was when you stopped breathing, and then it became when you stopped having a heartbeat. And then it's when your brain ceases to have brainwaves. Right. And that's where that's where we're at now, is brainwave death. So if your heart is still beating, your body is technically living alive. But your brain is not and cannot be, we don't have a way to resurrect that. So what do we understand death to be. And this is where I see hope in our society. This is where I'm hoping we will get to go that rather than asking these questions of being that we're removing the sanctity of life, we're redefining what life can be. So here's the optimism that you're just going to have to hold on to for just a little bit, because I can't, I can't end the episode this way, because I'm not going to be there. But it's optimism that rather than being afraid of death, which is what so much of our society is dealing with. And as a clergy person facing one's mortality is a question that we face a lot. And I know other third year the same way, and recognizing that, you know, bring on the Lion King, it's the circle of life, it's the circle of life where we're really looking at life, and that death is just a part of that. So getting down and drilling down, what are the things that we're afraid of, and it's, it's often a fear of difficulty and dying, or it's often a fear of an afterlife for some people. So that's not which it's not just death that we're afraid of, in our society with all these medical techniques, we have the ability to, to say, Okay, now we have the control. Right, we have the ability to Yeah, how are we using that control? How are we taking ownership of ourselves and our life, which includes this portion of?
 
28:27
So that's all for me.
 
28:33
Good luck.
 
Zack Jackson 28:55
I'll jump on the religious aspect, because the United Church of Christ actually has made Yeah, you have statements about this topic? Because of course, we have
 
Ian Binns 29:09
a lot of topics. That's not a complaint.
 
Zack Jackson 29:15
No. And you know why we do that is because the United Church of Christ is a congregational denomination, which means that the national setting has no power to enforce anything on local churches. So when we get together every other year for General Synod and we make these grand statements of, of witness and whatnot, there's no actual accountability that has to come with that. We can just say these things and then send it to a committee to make a study on it and send out materials to churches. And so unlike other denominations, where when they say something, they actually have to do something about it, we can just say a lot of things. So that's kind of nice, but we did in 2007 have For a resolution on the sea, the resolution was called legalization of physician aid in dying. And as a result of that, they, they voted in to affirm this, which sent it to a committee to do research on the topic and to create a six week study guide for small groups and churches. It was designed to be used during Lent, which is the time in which traditionally, we imagine ourselves in the tomb with Christ. And looking forward to resurrection. And so it's very theologically focused. I will put a link in, in in the show notes. But, you know, one of the things that it really focuses on is that Christians should not be afraid of death, death, and resurrection is kind of our thing. Like, it's, it's an important part of the Christian tradition and story. And so if we believe that death is not a final thing, but a transition into something else, then how one's life ends, his lesson is not all that important. And so whether that person dies by natural causes or dies, in physician assisted ways, the it is still a transition into into what is next. And we believe that people are more than just their physical bodies. And so keeping a physical body alive is not inherently more virtuous than allowing a physical body to die. And so we came down on the side of supporting, but also in an informed way.
 
Rachael Jackson 31:58
Zach, just to get out of like a clarifying question, maybe, because I think what a lot of what we've been talking about is, you know, the policies and statements that are for this kind of, you know, choice in deliberating like how someone wants to die, but just in case, there's any confusion for people who didn't like grow up in, in a community where there was a lot of opposition to this. I just wanted to, like, put out there some of the ways that people have been thinking about, like, aid and dying, and, and I personally didn't grow up with a ton of conversation around this. So I'll just say, like, from, from what I understand, like some of the verses, I guess, that were, that could be used to, like, deny someone the ability to have, like their own, like authority in determining when they could die if they were terminally ill, or versus, like one in or several, I guess, in the New Testament, but I'll just read one, which is in First Corinthians 316 through 17. And it says, Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you, if anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him, for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. And so it's like, versus like that, that I have these vague memories of people sort of using that as like, the theological argument of like, Well, someone shouldn't have should, someone shouldn't be able to make the decision to die before their time. Because, you know, like, the idea that your body is not your own, and that you just have to, like live until, like, God decides that it's not your time anymore. And so that's, that's, that's my memory of like that how that discussion went, but I like it. What else is there Zack? I feel like you probably have more like experiences and memories of how people have maybe argued this does that sound pretty? Pretty right to you? It does.
 
Zack Jackson 34:27
I was taught as a kid that taking any human life is a sin. And so taking your own human life is a sin. And because you took the life and then died with that sin, having not the opportunity to repent from it, then anyone who took their own life whether in this setting or in you know any other way would end up in hell was what I was taught in no uncertain terms. Yeah, which I think I've mentioned in a previous episode before, that my mom's explanation to me was that anyone who takes their own life, their brain typically has some issues going on. And God would see that in the same way that God would see the brain of someone with down syndrome who doesn't have the mental capacity to understand the ancient Creed's or, like, something like that. And it's also, as I reflect back now, I think about how those same people who would tell me that taking a life is a sin. Also found ways of getting around it when it was the death penalty or war. They found ways of theologically explaining those things, but not typically suicide, whether physician assisted or otherwise, or abortion, those were the two that were like, there's no way around that. But war and death penalty, they often found theological ways around it. And that's usually what we do, isn't it? when we, when our worldview supports something, we find a way of making our theology support it.
 
Ian Binns 36:15
So we cherry pick? Yeah, this this part supports my my conclusion. So I'm going to love this part, even if many other parts don't support it, I'll ignore this. Yeah, and I think that
 
Rachael Jackson 36:30
what you just said back to like that, that also resonates are I remember, some of my, like early conversations, saying that exact thing like about people going to hell when they make that decision. And I think what is what was always absent from those conversations, though, those like theological interpretations, it seemed like there was a conflation of all the circumstances in which someone might choose to, like, take their life. And obviously, it's like a super sensitive subject and really complicated, but I think that, like, a lot of what we've been talking about here, right now is, you know, the idea that, like, we're talking about a reduction in suffering, or like the attempt to reduce suffering and, like, focus on like, quality of life, rather than quantity of life. Which, you know, still still tricky, still controversial, but that that's really, I think, the core of what people are are thinking about when they like support something like the Death with Dignity act, and it's, it's, I think it does in in a lot of cases come down to are you are you emphasizing quality, or quantity? And it's not always easy to like separate those things out but that's where I see the difference and maybe like the the core of some of the disagreements about like whether this is a good thing.
 
Zack Jackson 38:11
I think I would be really interested in hearing different points of view based on profession. Yeah. Cuz I think a couple of years ago, this whole topic would have made me very uncomfortable. But I'm death is just such a part of my life. As a pastor of a primarily older congregation. All all day, all week all year, I'm, I'm with the dead and the dying and it has lost its staying. death itself is no longer something that really terrifies me. It's it's become this kind of more beautiful part of being alive. This transition that it's hard to explain, because then it makes you sound callous, and a little dead inside. But I think it's one of the most beautiful experiences when I can be present with someone at the end of their life. It is this holy and sacred thin space when somebody is breathing their last breaths. So I'm not afraid of it anymore. You know? Plus, I live with a pastor who used to be a hospice chaplain. So like, we talk about death around the dining room table.
 
Rachael Jackson 39:34
Just your everyday dinner conversation.
 
Zack Jackson 39:38
Yeah, so I almost kind of like the idea of getting to choose when you go because then you're not, then you're not worrying about the process of dying. Adam. Oh,
 
Adam Pryor 39:51
Zach, what you mean like death became a part of life. You said that, which is only interesting to me because Rachel said it too. Is that? Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what I'm after.
 
Zack Jackson 40:07
All right, so. So I did a CPE, which is clinical pastoral education at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital in Philadelphia. And my very first day, I was training with one of the chaplains, I walked into a room, because she had given called in, and the woman had died. Just maybe 15 minutes before we got there. And I didn't know that. And I'm standing in the room, and somebody mentions that she's dead. And I looked over at this person laying there that could have just been sleeping. But then suddenly, I was aware that this person had died. And I felt so weird. And I felt so creepy because this person wasn't prepared and dressed up and you know, the whole, like, Oh, they look just like they're, they look so good. The way you do it a viewing. This is a person that was still hooked up to machines and looked pretty bad, and was dead. And it was horrifying. And there's a certain smell that comes with death. And I thought about that for days and weeks. And then I just kept going and doing it. And as a chaplain being called when people were at the end, and sitting down with people, and you kind of I don't know, you do a scary thing a couple of times, and you get through it, and it's not as scary. And then once you're less afraid, you start to notice the more holy aspects of it. You know, for example, when a person is dying, and they know that they're dying, and they have disavowed themselves have the this mythology that they will live forever, and they know that the end is near, do you know the kinds of conversations you can have with a person in that state? They are the most honest conversations that that person has ever had in their life. And to be able to just speak openly about like, what do you think it's gonna be like, later on? Today? Maybe even? What do you think? those spaces, those conversations, it's almost like talking with an astronaut before they they go off into the great expanse, you know, you're, you're about to go see something that I'm not gonna see for a long time. And I want to talk with you about how you're feeling about it. And so I do this, and I've done this for years. And yeah, this is why most pastors were telling me they prefer funerals to weddings. There's less drama, and there's way more honesty, and it's a much more sacred and holy place that, that thin space at the end of life.
 
Adam Pryor 42:51
So I mean, I'm kind of sad, Rachel is not here, because I think it's like, probably the like place where like, we were gonna line up more than she would want to give credit for. I mean, I'll still still poke at her. But especially cuz she's not here to defend herself. But I'm an academic, that's what we do. So what I'm thinking about Zach is like, I think this language that both you and Rachel use, I think it comes from a very, like, pastoral. I mean, that in the broad sense, right, a sense of care place, to delimit to expose a place of scientific overreach, I don't think is like what we would describe it as doing, but I think it's implicitly what, what's happening, right? Which is, in a sciency way, right? Life is not dead. How do you define life? It's the persistence of not dying. Right? And if life is taken as that it's terrifying to die. But that's a very, I think, particularly in the 20th 21st century, right? Like, that's a very scientific way of getting at this right. It's this sense of saying, science has described for me, the ways in which something is living. Right, called biology. And, and what I think like, what I think is interesting, is that the pastoral approach that I think both you and Rachel want to take, wants to put the brakes on that for a second and say, hold up. what we think of as living might not line up directly with a definition Have the mechanics of a body or thing, trying to continually self perpetuate itself. And, on the one hand those sound like, like, Okay, so that's how religion is going to do this. And on the other hand, there are these sciency things that you can do, which are great. And, you know, sometimes great, and sometimes we should use them. And sometimes we shouldn't, but, but I think what, what I would push on is that, I think how we decide when to use and when not to use those medical and scientific interventions, lines up with, not how we think about death. But how we've defined life. Like, by bringing death into a part of life, right, you've reframed the conversation in a way that you can't, in the scientific context, because for somebody to be dead, be fundamentally not to be alive. Right, whereas that binary gets broken down. If you make death part of life.
 
Zack Jackson 46:27
at its best, one of the things that religion is supposed to do is to suppress the ego. And a person. Religion is a way of connecting a person to something larger than themselves. And one of the ways that my personal religion my faith does that is through knowing how interconnected that I am, that I mean, in my faith, I'll call that the Holy Spirit. I will also from my, you know, scientifically, I'll talk talk about the the atoms and molecules in my body, that are constantly being introduced and sent back out and you know, re forming and fighting back against entropy in order to create this thing. But that, you know, stars exploded A long time ago. And those those star pieces made this, and they made countless other living creatures before me, and they will make so many more after me. And so the me I see as a we, I don't, I'm not so worried about the death of my ego, because my religion has helped me to kill most of it anyway. And so, you know, people talk about having leaving a legacy, how will people remember me? How will I be remembered, they build these pyramids in the desert, because they want to be remembered, the ego has to live on well afterwards, which completely misses the entire point of the interconnectedness of the universe, and just the miracle of life, you know, Carl Sagan said that we are a way for the universe to know itself. And I love that I think that's has such, so spiritually profound. Those, those atoms that were created in those supernova are now able to know themselves because of this brief instance that we call Zack Jackson. And I love that, and I, so I think of death. And this is why I said at the beginning, that when I die, I want to be composted. Because I, when you cremate someone, you'll lose a lot of a lot of that organic material to the combustion. When you bury someone in a, like, traditionally, you know, you don't give back and I want 100% of, of what I am to go back, because I want it to live on as it lived on before me.
 
Rachael Jackson 49:13
And when you're pressed into a gemstone, similarly, you also live on
 
Zack Jackson 49:19
100%. I mean,
 
Adam Pryor 49:24
I think I mean, there's no segue from pressing people's bodies into gemstones that I can that I can make. I so yeah. I I'm also thinking about the question that Rachel asked Dan. And like, where that falls into this and like how I would think about it, and to not give the like snarky I need more information answer. Like Well, I I'm gonna stick with my snarky, like, I need more information, but not in the like, not in the sense of like, Okay. In an almost snarky or sense, don't worry, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go deeper, which is to say like, even if you gave me the information, okay, I don't know if I could answer the question one for anyone but myself. And two. For me this sort of like I, I'm very sympathetic to this idea that that like death is part of life right to overcome that dichotomy, right and that it has this, that making that movement and using religious traditions to make that movement de centers as in really, really important ways. So, I am 100%, on board there, it still leaves me with a big, long polling question, right, which is almost I think, harder, which is then to say, like, we will, but then how do you define that living thing? Like, how do you find that living thing that can be subject to death? And now, it's not just living by being a proxy of not being dead? Like, that's the question that that for me, comes immediately after the very pastoral movement that I heard you and Rachel making. And I mean, I think it's exciting because I don't think there are great answers to it. But also, I would take a stab at answering it, which is, I think what makes Rachel's predicament so difficult to deal with. So, I, I would play a language game, unsurprisingly. Right. Which is to say that we when we when we say something is living, or what it means to live, right, we can meet it in two senses, grammatically, and in transitive and a transitive sense. So we can mean it as something is alive. Right? as a state of situation, or we can mean it as the experience of living. Right? So that it's this this lived experience that one has not a state of being something, right. So it has these two senses when we use it. And for me, I think it's getting in to and being cognizant and about that sense of the lived experience, that's really important. Can I identify a set of experiences that living stuff house, that's essential to how I would think about whether or not I'm not actually ending my life is that 29 year old with the brain tumor who now has pneumonia. But as the 29 year old with a brain tumor, who's now got pneumonia, was I already dead? Because I had ceased to do the things by which I would constitute having living experience. So I'm not actually dying. And doing that no one's assisting me in dying, I was already dead. Even everybody that looks around me says, aha, you're alive because you have a heartbeat, or brain function, or this or that other thing. I mean, don't get me wrong, I know this goes down like a, an ethical, good. gray area might not be the right description, ethical terror, then that that can result. But I do think it's really I think it's really important to shapes the way that I think about life in what it means to live in really, really critical ways. I'm so sorry. Now I'm monologuing. Right? But like my, my bit here would be to say like, my cheeky answer of like, I need more information. Is that like, when Rachel puts that scenario forward? What I think about is me at 29. And at 29. I've got a three year old kid. And there are a vast number of things that I desire to have in relationship to the people who are in my life at 29 that says, Hell no, go treat that pneumonia. But I can also imagine a 29 year old for whom those desires for relationships which would be really critical to how I would define life are really gone. And then the pneumonia is, is the friend that makes a death that is already realized for that person available to everyone else to mourn?
 
Rachael Jackson 55:11
Yeah, I see a lot of what you're saying, Adam, as relevant to, like, the way that we kind of started and talking about, like, what, what are these different kinds of deaths and that we have, understandably, like an over emphasis maybe on like, the physical death. Because, you know, that's like, our physical bodies are a threat everyone, like sees and experiences immediately and, you know, I guess it's like, easier to make policies that affect those physical.
 
Adam Pryor 55:53
Like, I can measure the thing that I just,
 
Rachael Jackson 55:55
exactly. And that's what it like, the the scientific piece is, um, you know, it's far from simple, but it is simpler. And some cases, when you're dealing with, like, the physical stuff, but that there is, you know, we can talk about social death, or whatever other kind of death, but I think like, what you were just elaborating is, like, what I would call a social death of being totally disconnected, having like, no support system and no drive or capacity to be connected to a community or to a support system. And, you know, I get that that can like sound a little dramatic, I guess, to say, like, you're socially dead if you don't have those things. But, I mean, there's no, there's no denying that that makes an impact on people's lives, and all sorts of measurable ways that like social science has been measuring for, you know, many, many decades. And so that there's something about that feels really intuitive to me, even though, yeah, like you said, there's also like all kinds of other ethical conundrums that come up. But also,
 
Adam Pryor 57:13
let me just say, I mean, I'm cheating. I did write part of my dissertation on like, phenomenologies of life and death. So like, it's not like I just like came out with this quickly, like, I mean, I've been thinking about it for a decade. So yeah, I just, I feel like I should I want to do research,
 
Ian Binns 57:39
that I should all do research. I don't really wish you'd come up with these answers totally on the fly. So I'm gonna have to just dismiss everything you said?
 
Zack Jackson 57:49
Well, I learned all of my lessons about death from the school of hard knocks out on the front lines.
 
Adam Pryor 57:57
I mean, I will say too, though, I, I do think about it in personal ways, right? Like by my mother has pretty severe dementia. Right? Which has an interesting place within how people talk about death with dignity, right? It doesn't fit the legalistic framework that's been set up for like the Death with Dignity movement. And I think that's, its mean, a sound super cold. And I don't mean it that way. But it's like, in some ways, sort of interesting to see the ways in which working with a person who loses mental faculties illustrates the ways in which one's life is not one's own.
 
Ian Binns 58:47
Well, what is the difference? I feel like I know the answer to this, but the difference between death with dignity and a living will
 
Zack Jackson 58:55
a living well just says what you want to happen to you.
 
Ian Binns 59:00
Right? So you know, if you're,
 
Zack Jackson 59:03
if you're in a state where that sort of thing is legal, then you could put that in your living well,
 
Ian Binns 59:09
right. Well, you make that but I mean, if you're in a situation like that's where you write down, you don't want any extraordinary measures are taken that kind of stuff.
 
Zack Jackson 59:18
Right? Which listener if you don't have a living will, it's not hard to do and you should, you should definitely do it. My wife and I both have it you never know. You never know and it is always better for the people who are trying to take care of you if they know your wishes ahead of time and then every hospital
 
Adam Pryor 59:35
chaplain will thank you Yep.
 
Ian Binns 59:38
In my having written down Yes, every hospital chaplain will take you haven't officially written down and a living will takes away all those questions.
 
Zack Jackson 59:48
Write and right let it let everyone know what you want for your funeral for my mom has been making a playlist for her funeral for years, which includes Zombie by the cranberries which I told her is in bad taste
 
Adam Pryor 1:00:07
that decision
 
Zack Jackson 1:00:14
Yes, she at one point wanted time if your life by green days she was going through something in the 90s until I told her that the name of the song is actually good riddance. And then time of your life, it's a tongue in cheek song. Despite the fact that every single graduating class in the late 90s, early 2000s used it in their graduation. It is not what you think when you talk
 
Ian Binns 1:00:39
about like, for some reason, maybe think about this. But Did you all hear the story of the Irish man who died in 2019? And he set it up so that when his casket was being lowered into the grave, he had recorded himself? Oh, he was a prankster. As it's going down, all sudden, you hear his voice being like, hey,
 
Adam Pryor 1:01:06
let me out. Let me Oh, stuff like that. That they put out, right? Yeah. The soul Bell like, you know, because sometimes they got it wrong. You weren't really bad, or people were afraid that they got it wrong, or that you weren't really dead. So you could ring a bell and they would open the casket real quick. And you know, usually that was gross.
 
Rachael Jackson 1:01:25
Yeah, no, that is terrifying. Which is why if you get pressed into a gemstone and then have the rest of your body buried as Dustin of death, you can, you don't have to worry about that.
 
Zack Jackson 1:01:39
This is the reason why Thomas the campus is not a saint, despite the fact that he wrote the second best selling Christian book of all time, the imitation of Christ, when they zoomed his body, they found claw marks on the top of the coffin because he had been buried alive and they said a real saint would have just accepted his debt instead of fighting it. And so they never canonized him, which is Bs, which is why I think I call him a saint when I when I think about my bookie and that's all that matters, right? Oh, boy.
 
Ian Binns 1:02:13
So yes, dear listener, if we don't have in our notes, look it up Irishman pranks his family funeral, it was hilarious to watch. But the thing is that everyone expected it. Yeah. Okay, so first read it. They all tell everyone to do stuff like that. If you don't know, I don't think. I don't think he told them that he was gonna do that. I think maybe if you knew, but at least they knew he was a prankster. Right? And tell the funeral director telling jokes. And oh my gosh, it's so funny. To see all those people just chuckling. So, yeah, I think I'm gonna put some like that. So everyone
 
Zack Jackson 1:02:58
wants that everyone wants people to laugh at their funeral. Everyone I've ever talked to about this, they always go, I don't want people to cry and be sad at my service. I want people to be happy and tell stories and laugh. And every single person said this, I always tell them, do you think there's anyone out there who wants their loved ones to cry? No. But we're going to, because we're going to miss you. You're not going to be there. So you really don't get a say in this. And I'm going to cry at your funeral. And there's nothing you can do to stop me. And if you want to haunt me, go ahead. I'd actually kind of like that, I think, at least for a little while. Don't do anything weird and creepy. So like, my grandma told me, she doesn't want to serve us because she doesn't want people crying. And I said, I don't care, grandma. And she looked at me and she was like, might you wait, no, this is what I want. And I said, I don't care, because you're not going to be here. And these services are for the living and not for the dead. And there have been too many times people didn't want to burden someone else by you know, they don't want them to be sad, and then they don't get closure. So I'm all for respecting people's wills and wishes and all of that. But I am not above throwing a gorilla funeral service. When I need to
 
Ian Binns 1:04:13
fly I want to be I like in the various cultures around the world that treat it more as a celebration of life. Where they still have the moment and the funeral or somewhere where it is sad and things like that. But that it is a I remember, when I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Jamaica, that was what they were. Someone was explaining to me it's it's a celebration of that person's life.
 
Zack Jackson 1:04:32
I learned recently that Church, The Orthodox Church has an annual Feast on the day of a person's death for the first couple of years. So you get your family back together. You have a big meal and you share stories of that person on the anniversary of their death. And I think that's
 
Rachael Jackson 1:04:48
spectacular here. The dead one that's a great opportunity to hot people.
 
Adam Pryor 1:04:54
Absolutely. So efficient and catterall. There. That's what everybody longs for.
 
Zack Jackson 1:05:03
Just get them all in one place takes a lot of energy to haunt Adam.
 
Ian Binns 1:05:08
Yeah, I will have to say, Zack that I do feel like this conversation was probably a little bit more uplifting than the conversation about middle age,
 
Zack Jackson 1:05:21
which is hilarious, right? And a part of that, I think is because I wasn't there. I
 
Ian Binns 1:05:25
feel I feel happier. After this one than I did the last one,
 
Zack Jackson 1:05:30
the middle aged conversation was about the fear of death. And this one is about the acceptance of accepted it. It's great.
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 1:05:41
Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna end with a quote that was gonna bring us back down. But I guess I'll just leave that off. Because I feel like we're in a good place. Oh, God, go
 
Ian Binns 1:05:49
ahead. Go ahead. Bring it No, I
 
Kendra Holt-Moore 1:05:50
don't know that it fits. It also takes us back to like terror management theory, which we've kind of not really been talking about. So this is good.
 
Zack Jackson 1:06:00
Okay, well, we can end our series with an announcement then, that this is the last episode in this mini series, which will bring us to, I think just about our two year anniversary. And so in celebration of that, and also because we have a whole bunch of professors that are going to be doing a lot of transitioning in this period, and a rabbi who will be entering into high holy days, and me who's just doing stuff. We're gonna we're gonna put up some of our favorite episodes from the first two years. And so if you missed them, or if you just want to listen to him again, because I've been listening to some of the older episodes, and there's some they're made of Kendra in there. And then after that, when we're gonna What's that? Yeah, they're made Oh, cuz they're gem gems. Ah, that was a call back I gotcha. Very well played. So when we come back from that, we've got a whole slate of new interviews and a new format for the show that will focus around storytelling, and a variety of new segments, which we're excited to bring you, which may or may not include books we've read or demons that we've loved or dead Christians. We want to tell fun stories about
 
Rachael Jackson 1:07:29
and listener questions gonna leave you
 
Zack Jackson 1:07:31
with that and listener questions. Oh, yeah, that's the important one. So we've got a lot in store for year three, and we're excited to bring it to you. gonna end it with that.

Medical Ethics Part 4 (Hairs in Places They're Not Supposed to Be)

Episode 88
Our exploration of medical issues along the span of our lives has reached the middle age. That strange period of time whose goalposts are constantly shifting because the people on the lower end don't want to admit it's beginning and those on the other end, don't want to admit it's over. This period is marked by an awareness of our body's limitations and our stubborn refusal to get that weird new ache checked out by a doctor. It can be a time of self-realization, honest introspection, and spiritual awakening or it could also mean a new sportscar and expensive vices. People do funny things when they start to discover hairs in places they're not supposed to be! 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
Transcript 
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
 
Rachael Jackson  00:05You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are
Ian Binns  00:17Ian Binns Associate Professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. And if I were to pursue a midlife crisis, the first thing that hit my head was is I would get tattoos. My name is Adam Pryor,
Adam Pryor  00:29I work at Bethany college. If I were to live out one of my midlife crisis fantasies, it would be to send all of my children to boarding school and buy myself a convertible.
Kendra Holt-Moore  00:48Kendra Holt-Moore, PhD candidate at Boston University, and my midlife crisis would either be get an eyebrow piercing, or get really involved in local theater, and just audition for all the main characters and try to achieve small town fame.
Rachael Jackson  01:08Hi, this is Rachael Jackson, Rabbi at Agoudas, Israel congregation Hendersonville, North Carolina. And if there were a midlife crisis that I would fulfill, I think it would be going off the grid entirely, and just becoming a hermit with my cross stitch stuff, and just sitting there and stabbing fabric for hours on end.
Adam Pryor  01:36So, as the as the question has been to indicate today, we are talking about health care, and particularly the issues of middle age, which is sort of the least exciting period of healthcare is what I've decided, right? No, no violent birth or death, just the long stetic period where everything is supposed to be humming along like normal, and yet you feel worse about yourself every day.
Rachael Jackson  02:05This is totally a year episode. Exactly.
Adam Pryor  02:11does feel like I was built for this. So but it's interesting, right click, because it's hard to find a lot of information about issues in the middle of life, because ideally, things are sort of going along pretty normally. And so there are a couple of things that I found that I thought were really interesting. So most of the material that you find talking about healthy aging, particularly during this period, relates to mental health more than it does physical health. The second thing that I found that I thought was interesting was that folks who tend to be in middle age seem not to go to doctors. They're maybe even worse than their own children who don't want to go to the doctor, but you make them go. But then when you hit this long middle period, you suddenly stop going as regularly. So I have another confessional question for you. I'm just curious when the last time you went to a doctor was
Rachael Jackson  03:07I went to my GP in December.
Adam Pryor  03:11recognize my stats here?
Ian Binns  03:14Yeah, I went 10 to 10 days ago. Sorry.
Adam Pryor  03:20You guys are by representative sample in any way, shape, or form? Not
Ian Binns  03:24at all, because the moment you told us before we started recording that that's what the data tells us. I knew immediately. I'm throwing that out. Yeah. Because I've always been the if I got some wrong and call the doctor.
Adam Pryor  03:36Do you really?
Rachael Jackson  03:38Yeah, I'm the opposite of that. No, I'm the I only got a baseline kind of person. So that's why I went because I I was turning 40 this year. And because health insurance is stupid. It worked out better that I went in December of last year rather than wait until I officially turned 40 this March. So I went last December so I could get a baseline of Okay, this is what I am at 40. Plus it was a pandemic year. So I was super stressed. So what was what did I look like in a super stressed 40 year olds is kind of what why I went I won't be going this year.
Kendra Holt-Moore  04:20I don't have a GP. But I have been a graduate student with my health insurance through Boston University. So I would just go to Student Health Services, and then they might tell me to go somewhere else. So I guess that kind of counts as a GP services,
Rachael Jackson  04:41but you're also technically just just throwing that one out there. You're not also technically middle aged,
Adam Pryor  04:45correct? Yes, correct. Right.
Kendra Holt-Moore  04:48Throw in my throw in my experience there. I do try to avoid the doctor until something urgent happened. See, so and I have been in the last year
Ian Binns  05:00I have had some unusual medical things happen to me over the last 10 to 15 years, that that's another reason why I'm like, you know what something's going on. And I'm kind of like, I'm not really sure about this out. Now what I do is I send them a message to the online system and say, Hey, this is happening. thoughts. And if they want me to come in, I come in, just because, you know, but the running joke when I had that weird infection in my hand that hospitalized me for two days and led to two surgeries, you know, and would have killed me if I had not gone in all the guys I work out with said, Hey, man, it's really good euro was because if it happened, any of us we would have been dead. I was like, exactly. Explaining, you have no idea how much my finger hurt, and they just like did just know, your finger. Does not matter. So yeah, because I went in is a reason why I didn't have to have anything amputated and or end up dying. So you know.
Adam Pryor  06:07So worth the check. So it was worth the check. Absolutely.
Ian Binns  06:14And I've had kidney stones several times. So yeah, when stuff happens, I'm just like, yeah, that's what they're there for. I also I'm under that, I think, mindset because growing up on a military facility in Germany, and even though my parents were divorce, I was still under my dad's medical insurance as a retiree. And so there was never a costs associated with going, you know, our my insurance was, I was fully covered with everything. And when you have something wrong, you just went in, I remember the first time I had to go to the doctor, I was in college, and they asked me about the copay, I just kind of looked at what was he talking about. And it was actually I didn't even know where to go first. Because there was no urgent care. For the most part, it was if he had something wrong, you know, on the military facilities, at least at the time, it was more of like, here's the ER, here's this kind of stuff. And that's where you went. And I remember kind of suggesting that someone and they're just like, what do you know, you don't go to the RFA, you go to urgent care. I didn't know what it was. So yeah, it was big, you know, wake up call. And as Rachel said, insurance is ridiculous.
Adam Pryor  07:27Yeah, I feel like the insurance piece is the like, largest factor of health care and middle age. Like, I, cuz I don't know about you. But anyway, it will everywhere. But but in particular in middle age, because I feel like you're you're kind of healthy enough to sort of roll along, if you so choose. But also, you start to get aware that like, probably somebody should, you know, take a look under the hood and make sure everything's okay. It's like when your car hits 100,000 miles, right, there are just some things you probably shouldn't do. And you also go, I really don't want to, because I know how much this will cost. Maybe not everybody feels that way. I certainly feel that way. Every time my wife looks at me and says you should go to doctor. And I say no, because I'm just too cheap.
Rachael Jackson  08:20Right? No, I think I think you're absolutely right. That it's it's partly our system. So it'd be interesting to see, because you were you were our anecdotal evidence or our anecdotal stories kind of disproved your scholarship article that you were saying that, you know, people have this general age Don't. Don't go. So I'm wondering if if it is a health insurance thing? What about countries that have universal health care if they experienced the same sort of dip in activity at this particular age range?
Adam Pryor  08:56Yeah, importantly, they don't. This is a distinctly and
Rachael Jackson  09:00they know that. Great.
Adam Pryor  09:02Yes. The World Health Organization has looked at that significantly, right. In terms of talking about what, what happens when you provide universal access to health care. Right. And I think it's interesting, right, because like, in some ways, all three of us, I'm going to explode you Kendrick cuz you're not middle aged yet. But the three of us who want
Rachael Jackson  09:25to be associated with you, people.
Adam Pryor  09:26That's right. Hey, now, don't worry. You're gonna feel good about talking about houses soon? Yeah. No, like, there's this, this element that I do kind of wonder like, are we not necessarily good representative samples across the board? One because of education, but to because of access to probably I would assume reasonable health insurance, even if not great health insurance?
Rachael Jackson  09:55If reasonable means that it costs the same as my mortgage then yes, yes. I have actually Access to reasonable health insurance. I,
Ian Binns  10:05we realized and I this was interesting to me, and this is not saying anything bad about where I used to work, but the health coverage in Louisiana was better than it is here in North Carolina, now that the services Yeah, there's no I'm not worried about anything. But when it came to the insurance part, like the premiums that we had to pay every month were lower than, you know, for me and and on it than it would have been for here and I. But then, if we they had a really interesting system there. It was called LSU. First, it was like a three tiered system. And the first year was LSU. First and if provider or hospital was part of the LSU, first, you paid nothing. Like that was part of their system. There was no copay, nothing. It was amazing. And then you had like, then the next tier was is that you had, they were in network, and then you had your deductible, right, and your copay. And then you had out of network deductible copay, which is obviously a whole lot more. But it was just, I remember seeing that when we got down there. And I just like, Whoa, that's amazing. So even when the twins are born, the hospital we did it in was one that was under the LSU first system. So it was considerably cheaper than it would have been if we gone to the other hospital. Which I find fascinating. But I think one of the things that really helped me was all about middle aged stuff, and insurance and all those things that when I did have that issue, that infection in my finger, they weren't sure what was going on. And we were sitting in the earth or the hand surgeon's office, and they were trying to look at it. Like, we don't know what this is. But we know we have to do an immersion surgery tonight. And this was at three o'clock in the afternoon telling us this. I do remember and then having to call the hospitals to make sure they took my medical insurance. Now I'm on the state health plan. So ended up not being a problem. But I do recall also to either the PA or the doctor or somebody suggesting to and make sure the hospital that we're going to take your insurance. Right. And I be I was always shocked. I'm still shocked by that, that. That's just unbelievable, right. And by the second surgery, which was in April of that year, I had reached my out of pocket maximum. So I paid nothing else the year when I would go the doctor, even for PT because of the hand. They In fact, even the physician's assistant at the time was like, well, we probably want to get you an occupational therapy. I'm not sure what your insurance looks like. And I said, Well, I've meet I've met the out of pocket maximum. He's like, Oh, well, we're just gonna write you for a whole bunch of them then. But it was just that mindset of that's what's so wrong with our system. So we'll get there, Kendra, you'll get there.
Kendra Holt-Moore  13:05Hi. Yeah, I've got some stories to share already. My husband almost went deaf a couple years ago. And so the doctor's bills of trying to like get that all sorted out. It's pretty insane.
Rachael Jackson  13:21Yep. I wanted to tackle one of your other points there, Adam. We were saying that. No, why not? Right, is it that we're just kind of status quo. And then at this, at this particular point in life, people focus on mental health, as opposed to strictly physical health of those, the two are often quite related. So that but the one of the other pieces that I was really thinking about is also at this point of life. And let's let's clarify. So I just asked two and a half questions. So let me ask a third actual question and start there. How are we defining middle life?
Adam Pryor  14:08How do you want to define middle middle life or middle age?
Rachael Jackson  14:14Yeah, I think that's a crucial question.
Adam Pryor  14:19Right? We were talking a little bit before, like things started right like that it keeps getting pushed older. I'm going to blame the baby boomers, because I blame them for everything. And I'm assuming that they just don't want to be old. So they want middle age to go further and further and further, right. Like, now middle ages to 65. And I'm like, No, no, no, you're old. You're not middle aged anymore. You're your past middle aged. I like to use 40. That's the number that I think of. And like plus or minus 40. Right. But like it there's something about that like statistically I am closer to death than I am closer to both Right, and that impending move that I go, that's to me where the like the middle life piece hits, which I know is not necessarily a popular answer. And there are different ways to do it. But it feels very
15:15straightforward to me.
Kendra Holt-Moore  15:38makes sense to me like I wouldn't. Yeah, I wouldn't say that, like 65 should be the new like middle aged mark. But 40 does feel young ish to me. Like, again, I'm speaking as the non middle aged person in the virtual room. But I think that, like technological advancements, people are living longer and will continue to live longer than we had previously. And so it does, it makes sense to me to have middle age, scoot a little bit further back then the 40. Mark, because I just, yeah, just like, a lot of older people I know who are like grandparents or great grandparents, or I know a lot of people who live well into their 90s. And, you know, not saying that, that's like the norm for everyone, but it's becoming more the norm. And so, yeah, I would scooch it back.
Adam Pryor  16:34It could be that I'm still fully anticipating to die by 80. Yeah, possibly seven.
Kendra Holt-Moore  16:38Middle Age, right.
Rachael Jackson  16:40But so when I was looking, and there's a it depends where you look, when does it start, I've seen the start of middle age be 3540 or 45. And the end of middle age be either 60 or 65. I haven't seen middle age end later than 65. The average life expectancy for the United States for men is 80. And for women 84. So I think you're not wrong, Adam to say that you don't expect to live past 80. That's the average life expectancy of men, your personal genetics, your family, genetics, your lifestyle. All of that, of course, has an issue, but 40 is straight up minute like you've literally lived half your life. Right? Like from a mathematical standpoint, none of us actually know when we're going to die. But given statistics, half is done. Right. And I think and then from a female standpoint, right, our physiol our physiology, right? If if we're only seen of as birthing machines, then then the question might be, when does half of your birthing abilities end? Right? So if we, if we look at what menstruation starts and say 13, rounding small nut rate 13. And when does it end? 5055. Right, depending on depending, again, dependent. So if we say 55. So it's 20 years, or excuse me, 40 years, half of that is 35. Right? So from a female biological standpoint, 35 would be the start of middle aged half of your birthing your reproductive life is over. So in that way, and and that's a medical place. So I think 35 is also not an not an air. When we look at jobs, people aren't necessarily retiring at 60 or 62, or even 65. Right? Some people are working until 7075. So to say, Well, I'm How long is my work history. So if my work history is 50 years, and I start when I'm 22, middle age isn't going to start until I'm 45. Right? So I I think there's value and understanding when we're talking these ages that there's a lot of different lenses that we can use. And from a from a psychological and an emotional standpoint. I see middle aged also and not necessarily in this generation because people are living so much longer. really starting to kick in. And the end of middle age. Where middle age ends is when your next when the generation before you has died. When you know if we're if we're looking at the natural order of things and saying Okay, my parents, my aunts and uncles, all of them, they've died. I'm next. And to me, that's one of those places that indicates the end of middle age. That's how, from an emotional standpoint, which is also why like, why should I go to the doctor, I don't want them to find things. I don't want I don't want That reality,
Ian Binns  20:01so helps you realize that you're not or that you are mortal.
Rachael Jackson  20:06Right? Right. I mean, teenagers and adolescence that's a better term adolescence go through an invincible stage. I think in middle age, we go through an immortal stage. I know, I know, I can get hurt, but I'm gonna live forever.
Adam Pryor  20:27reckoning with mortality.
Rachael Jackson  20:29Yes. Yeah. And it's hard.
Adam Pryor  20:35does kind of suck any other way to put it.
Ian Binns  20:42So I started looking at, like signs that you have reached middle age,
Rachael Jackson  20:45or what people think and know when those were written. So if you're looking at, you know, like huffington post things, make sure when they're ready. Yeah,
Ian Binns  20:54that one's funny. The Huffington Post one that was update in 2017. There's some pretty funny ones on here.
Rachael Jackson  21:02Are you gonna Why are you just gonna leave it like that? No, hold
Ian Binns  21:04on, a hair starts appearing everywhere. When your nose face ears. Hair Reading on your? Yeah, Reading on your phone becomes difficult because the font is suddenly too tiny and blurry. The shed or basement becomes your favorite place. you've
Adam Pryor  21:21dug a little too, too close to home.
Ian Binns  21:24That's why I read that one. Oh. You begin thinking policemen, teachers and doctors look really young. Yeah. Yeah. You are obsessed with your health. You begin looking over the top of your glasses. You start enjoying naps more than ever.
Rachael Jackson  21:50No. naps are for everything. Except for as punishment for children. Right? Because they think it's a punishment. But
Adam Pryor  21:58yeah, forever.
Ian Binns  22:00You find yourself saying what and huh? All the time. You find a lot harder to lose weight a whole lot harder. You don't know any of the songs played on the radio. Gardening becomes an obsession. You develop? You develop little leaks. This is a good one. Yeah. You grow and every time you bend over,
Rachael Jackson  22:28that could have happened to anybody at different times, depending on what their birthing was like.
Ian Binns  22:34Yeah. Anyway, those are some some. Yeah.
Adam Pryor  22:40I hadn't hadn't thought about defining middle aged by how leaky you are. Kind of like that. Mm hmm. So I can't wait.
Kendra Holt-Moore  22:55Some of those already apply though, actually. Yeah.
Ian Binns  22:57See, I told you, you're on your way. Yeah, that's fine.
Rachael Jackson  23:02It's the alternative.
Adam Pryor  23:07what's the alternative?
Rachael Jackson  23:09data?
Adam Pryor  23:11Ah, I like that, that no one's used forever. Nobody. Nobody went with like the transhumanist answer there. That's good. That's good.
Rachael Jackson  23:21We covered that. That's, that's not what we want. That we want. We want death.
Ian Binns  23:26So I wish dear listener Tune in next time when Kendra takes us on a conversation about death. Oh, yeah, it's gonna be great.
Adam Pryor  23:35In preparation for that conversation about death is as we reach this sort of, like, middle aged piece, right, we talked a little bit about this, this idea that like, mental health becomes a big piece of how people think about it. And there's this in a lot of the in a lot of research, there's this this sort of description of a longing for youth, right, a sort of almost like a nostalgia for things that you used to be able to do. But now, perhaps that was no longer a good idea is my way of describing it. So I ran into this the other day, when I was throwing Linus up in the air. And I went, did that was a it was a poor decision in relationship to when I did this with Henry. And I didn't even like think about it. And Henry was a heavier child, and that made me more depressed. I've known what that experience was
Rachael Jackson  24:33like, but just to clarify, the two of them are what, nine years apart
Adam Pryor  24:36nine years apart? Yeah. Were you stronger than I am immortal, more physically?
Ian Binns  24:45were you doing more physical things and like physically fit the new aren't new and
Adam Pryor  24:49now I feel as though I feel like I can say that for like, a 37 year old. I am like, relatively fit. I went out and biked 105 months. Last weekend, like I feel thing, I feel relatively fit. I've been cycling a lot like, you know, I don't feel undue in that regard, but also, like, not like when I was in my, you know, mid 20s and could swing my child around without abandon no matter what.
Ian Binns  25:21Well, all the reason why I'm asking this because like, for example, because of, you know, when I joined f3, and started doing boot camp style workouts, when I was a kid, and stuff and a runner, I never had upper body strength. So I can never do pull ups or anything like that. Now, I can't go out right now and knock knock many pull ups out because I'm not because of the pandemic as I've I've never really worked on physical strength, like I had before. But when I was training for those Spartan races, yeah, I can knock out pull ups, and that was 39 4041. So I was definitely more physically stronger than than I was maybe when the kids were born. Was that's why I was asking like, Is it just because in middle age now there are aches and pains that I have now that didn't especially back pains, back and neck pains that you're just like, oh, that was one of the ones I did not read off. Back in, like back in that pains. And then it also made me think to one of the things I saw on another list was purchasing your decor for your house. That if you're more excited about that, then other things, toys or whatever, that's obviously a big difference,
Rachael Jackson  26:30like going out on Saturday night. A fun date on Saturday night is like Home Depot, Target, and Sam's. Yeah. You know, yeah, free samples.
Adam Pryor  26:40Or then even like the type of good free samples are back, I just want to
Rachael Jackson  26:44do that for you. They're not back for us. They
Adam Pryor  26:46are they're coming back for us. And it is going to drive my grocery bill down. Yeah, because I get to eat me some free samples.
Ian Binns  26:57That's a middle aged thing. I would say cuz you're sitting there wouldn't I mean, can you say what you said it to drive my grocery bill down?
Adam Pryor  27:05That's right. That's what I'm worried about.
Kendra Holt-Moore  27:06I don't know if that's a middle aged.
Rachael Jackson  27:09shoe. That's a cheap thing.
Ian Binns  27:11That's a cheap item. Okay. You're right. That's that's just cheap. Adam. That's true.
Rachael Jackson  27:17That's true. Okay, in typical Rachael fashion. Can we talk about the positives, though?
Adam Pryor  27:26There are positives. There are parts. Are you sure? Because I bet I can split all your positives into negatives. Okay,
Rachael Jackson  27:34you were just saying you're not as strong as you were before.
Ian Binns  27:36I need my popcorn. Well played on that one, Rachel, thank you. I'm ready. I'm ready. Remember, she lifts weights. Flip it.
Rachael Jackson  27:48One of the things that I think really happens to people in this category of middle age, however a person chooses to identify when it starts and when's it ends, is a really knowing oneself. And this is where I think the midlife crisis concept comes in, where a person finally realizes that they are mortal. And that time is the most precious thing that we have. And because of that, we don't want to waste it. And so there's a reevaluation of life a reevaluation of priorities of reevaluation of self. And that transformation, that metamorphosis, I think, is absolutely beautiful. And there's a sort of understanding of not really caring as much what others think that a particular age you know, that turns into curmudgeonly old men usually, but it's, it develops in a nice way early. So that that that for me is one of the biggest positives that I see in this category of middle age.
Adam Pryor  29:25But I'm gonna just turn that on its head a little bit, right, like, cuz that might go really poorly. And what was well, right, so I think part of what goes on with that midlife crisis is exactly this sort of like self awareness that you're describing, right? But what happens when you're aware that the self you've become is drastically, drastically not what you want to be,
Rachael Jackson  29:48then you change
Adam Pryor  29:52or you buy a convertible
Rachael Jackson  29:54or get a tattoo you find really poor coping mechanisms. Correct. Given that that's at every stage Well, yes, I'm in the hence the poor weight loss issues. Yeah. Right then. But I mean, I think of an unhealthy coping mechanism that our society has made a joke of, but I don't
Adam Pryor  30:15I think part of this is that like the, the discovery of self is not inherently positive. Right? It's a sort of neutral item, I think, Oh,
Rachael Jackson  30:27really?
Ian Binns  30:29When that'd be based on perspective, load the discovery of like, yeah, I, I'm with you, Rachel, you say, say that, again,
Adam Pryor  30:38the discovery of self is not inherently positive. I think it's neutral.
Kendra Holt-Moore  30:43Oh, yeah. I agree with that.
Rachael Jackson  30:45Same Oh, Kendra.
Kendra Holt-Moore  30:49I just, I mean, it's such a personal like process. But I think what I hear when Adam says that is that people over the course of their lives, and not just in middle age, although I'm sure it can, like, Look, a particular way, because that's when we talk about things like midlife crisis, and all of that, but people have different like practices and hobbies, and you know, life circumstances change you and you just become more self aware over the course of your life, or not everyone does become more self aware, actually. And it just, yeah, I think, what, what Adam just said, is that, like, you can wake up one day and realize that you're not who you hoped you would be, and might also find it really hard to change into who you hope to be. And I don't know, like, there's just a million factors that play into, like, what constitutes the self? And I guess that's maybe the bigger, more daunting question is, like, what do we what are we discovering when we discover the self, but I just think that, yeah, like to be satisfied with the self, that you discover, probably has a lot to do with things like, healthy support system, and financial stability, and, you know, like, meaning making processes that are, you know, accessible to you. And, and that, I mean, those things aren't like, what we typically consider to be an inherent part of the self, but they, I think, make life a lot easier for us to become our best selves. And, and so yeah, it's just, it feels like a really, like, life is complicated. discovering who we are, or creating ourselves. The way that we want to be is just, yeah, it's a real mixed bag for people. And so it feels really intuitive to me that that, that does, that it is a neutral process, because it can be it can look very good for some people and very bad for others. And it's wrapped up in all of these like social factors, too. And some people just don't have a lot of control over those things and what they do have control over? Well, yeah, I guess that's still, that's still brings us to a conversation about like, you know, it's it's not what it's not about, like what you can't control, but it's about like, the attitude you have towards the things you can't control, like little quotes like that about, you know, who you are, who you're not, and, yeah, so anyway, I just find that a really intuitive way to talk about like self discovery. What does that not feel? I'm curious about what, what you guys are thinking Rachel and he and, Dan,
Ian Binns  33:52I think the way you said it was a lot nicer. I'm just gonna say it. So
Adam Pryor  33:59the way Kendra said it?
Ian Binns  34:01I do. I do. Because I feel like it still gets the way I was thinking of it was a perspective thing, right? It's how you approach it. And and I think that shifts, depending on what stage of life you're in, and also can just depend on the day, you know, or the moment that you're experiencing something. And so I guess, over time, it could average out as neutral feeling that way. But go ahead. Well, so one of the things that, you know, that I This helped a lot with, like all of the mindfulness meditation I've done is to really focus on which I just hit one year,
34:44daily.
Ian Binns  34:45Last Friday, I was very excited with that 10% happier group. But is that right? And then I still also we're still working progress, obviously but recognizing what I can and cannot control and to learn it. let that go is tough. Right? So I think by the fact that I'm getting better at that than I used to be, that would make it I think things more positive, because I'm recognizing what I have control over. But if I'm in a foul mood, or struggling on that day, it doesn't matter. This Yeah. It will be a negative perspective. So,
Kendra Holt-Moore  35:27yeah, yeah. And I just wanted to add that, like, what I just said, I could see how maybe it sounds like a little bit deterministic of like, oh, what, what's around you makes you who you are. And I do think that's true to an extent, but also, like, what you're saying, in the personal practices, we have to try to, you know, like, create ourselves or however you want to phrase that. It's, it's a matter of practice and like determination to some extent that. Yeah, you might not feel the same every day. And that's okay. I don't think that really like, changes your, like, fundamental being, it's just that, like, we, I think humans, we have practices for ourselves, we participate in rituals, we have community and support systems, because that those things do create a boundedness around who we perceive ourselves to be. And we, we each have many different roles in our families, and friends and communities. And that those are all ways that we, that we do, like, derive a sense of who we are. And some of that's like aspirational, you know, like, if you strip that all away, like, what, how would that make you different than who you are? In your role as like, teacher, pastor, Mother, you know, all of these things? So it's just like a really, it's a really difficult question, I think, to, to answer without thinking about the things we do to practice being ourselves in the forms of, you know, practices like meditation or attending that, like, a Bible study group every Sunday, or showing up to class to teach every week, you know, things like that. So just wanted to add that Rachel has a very quizzical look on her face. Yeah,
Rachael Jackson  37:25I I hear what you're saying. totals, parent medical tangential aside, I think everyone needs to go through active listening and assertive speaking. training. So I hear what you're saying. I think I'm coming at it from a very different place. from a place of I think, Adam, you said status quo. Right? That's, that's one of the characteristics of this time of life is status quo. And when I compare that to other phases of life, say, if we look at, right post middle age, what happens after middle age? What, like, what happens? What how are we? How are we calling that old? elderly? Right? I, it depends. And then there's medical terminology of elderly or older, or frail, all of those different fragile, right, these are all medical terms that can be used in those ways. But if we say, elderly, right or old, right, you have middle age, and you go to old, and you go to elderly, old and elderly, are in our society, because that's someone that we can really speak to, are categorized, often by the decline of the body, and the re evaluation of the self outside of a profession. Whether that profession was raising children, or having a career or whatever it was with that there's there's a shift in our culture of Oh, now you're retired. And that's, that's a very big shift in our human doing our productivity, our you have to, so that our society is very surrounded around that. So I think older and elderly are really looking at redefining the self outside of a profession. And in terms of the body, right, the body itself starts to really decline in those points. Youth, adolescence, is categorized and for me looked at as finding yourself within society, like pushing the boundaries, where is authority? How do I fit in? How do I fit there, like I am knowing mostly who I am, but it's an age of exploration. This status quo is a I've established what my career is more Less, I've established more or less, at least a partnership or not a partnership, a child like rearing children or not rearing children that there's a, these things are not necessarily fully brand new at this point, right? Most people don't say at 50. Now I want children when I didn't want them for the last 30 years. It could be a Oh, shucks. Now we have another right there. I mean, it's not saying that it doesn't happen, but that it rarely at that stage of life, is it a, yes, this is what I want. And I've never given it any thought. But that it's a status quo, which allows us to then in a slow, methodical, or not even methodical, but in a in a status quo sort of way to say, is this who I am. And I think and I will, I will very much saying I really appreciate you pointing out Kendra, that this is coming from a point of privilege. This is most definitely coming from a place of privilege that I didn't earn. Some of it, I did most of it, I didn't. And that there are people who don't have the privilege to have that conversation of self, which is one of the the markers of modernity, as opposed to pre modern era, right, they didn't have this luxury work for 15 hours a day, six days a week is. So having said all of that I come from a place of this is our time to just sort of slow down and figure out what what not what we're trying to reclaim, which is what I think you were trying to look at Adam, but how to re hone who we are. And even if it's a even if it's a 180 from who we are, it's a I can now confidently say at 40. I am an introvert. I am not shy. But I'm definitely an introvert I am a low energy person. I am a particular food eater. not picky. But I like what I like. And I'm gonna change that a whole lot. And it's okay that I like blue box mac and cheese. And I'm not going to apologize for that. And I'm not going to feel bad about it. I'm not going to feel bad about who I am or my choices and feel like someone's judging me. Anything that's that's the recognition of self that has nothing to do with my role as a clergy person, as a spouse as a parent. It's a Who am I What do I like to do? What are the things that make me happy? Not my mood. And if you'll if you'll allow me the ability to make one more analogy. One of the things I hear you saying Ian is really like weather. Today's weather. How do I feel today? Right? And that's weather. Right today? Like it was 105 degrees in Billings, Montana yesterday, that is absurd. And it snowed in Texas. And that is absurd. Right? The weather is the daily changes, but the climate. That's what we're looking at now. And I'm saying at this point in our life, this is when we can recognize the climate is changing. Can we change it? Do we want it to change? if so how? Right? cooler Texas sounds great, hotter, Montana, not great. Warmer oceans, bad idea. Poor little sharks, heard a whole story on sharks and being in mermaid purses and stuff like that, and how warm oceans are making them die. Like that. That would be the negative. But I think inherently it is good, I think inherently. And that's why I'm saying it's not inherently neutral. I think it's inherently good to look at oneself in the mirror and say this is who I am. And I'm good with that. So that that for me is the positive. Because we're not focusing on developing the career rearing the young worrying about our bodies. Again, speaking from a place of privilege.
Adam Pryor  44:30Okay with that, if you're good with it. It's the person who looks at it and says, I'm not, and there's no mechanism to change that I look at and go, that's a that's a different sort of notion of what self discovery is.
Rachael Jackson  44:49Why is there not a mechanism to change that's what I don't understand.
Adam Pryor  44:54privilege.
Rachael Jackson  44:57Can you say more? Yeah. You're like me, I'm dead body?
Adam Pryor  45:01No. So I do it this way. I'm Joe trucker. And Joe trucker has woken up at 45. And gone, I spent 20 years of my life driving truck. And I'm not sure that I believe that I've actually done anything good in the world. And I would like to do something good in the world. And I have no savings by which to change the structure of the day to day grind that I find myself in. That is not a moment of self discovery that I would say is inherently good.
Rachael Jackson  45:33disagree.
Adam Pryor  45:35But I think that's because you assume the structure of knowing the truth is good.
Rachael Jackson  45:41I do assume that,
Adam Pryor  45:43and I do.
Ian Binns  45:44But you are also Adam. I feel like with the example you just gave, you're still not fully in that person's perspective. No, no, no, no, you've not you've not lived that perspective. So you do not know. So that's the the, the To me, it sounds like. And so I want to push back a little bit on that, like I see your point, Adam, with that example, based on my perspective, I would I would potentially see that the same way. But based on the person who's lived that entire life in their perspective, I don't, I don't, I can't say how I would say,
Adam Pryor  46:19if you can't say how you would see it, I also don't think you can say self discovery is inherently good.
Rachael Jackson  46:24But I see what the problem that I have with your analogy, is that you're basing that on a person's profession, that person could then say, Yep, I am a trucker. And I feel like I haven't done anything good in the world. Now, let me go be a trucker for a company that I feel does good in the world. Or now let me take this time that I have, because I might truck 60 hours a week, but I have two hours that I could give. And I'd rather do that because this is a lack that I feel and I can do something about that. So so the profession might not change the situation of having savings might not change. But that self discovery can be a very positive change.
Adam Pryor  47:05But But I think cannon is are two different things. It can be a positive change,
Rachael Jackson  47:13there is no try only do
Adam Pryor  47:15like, but will it be is is is also a is part of what I would press back on there. And why I would call it neutral. Okay.
Kendra Holt-Moore  47:26Yeah, I was gonna also reflect that I think that Adams hypothetical, it's not that the hypothetical is always the case that like Joe trucker is going to reflect on his his himself as, you know, being like in a negative or positive position. It's just that both of those possibilities can happen. And because of the potential for that to go that either way, that that's where the neutrality lies.
Adam Pryor  48:01I mean, I work in higher ed, I I'm generally in favor of self discovery, as like something that's important.
Rachael Jackson  48:07Yeah. You sway me towards neutrality. I can, I can see that. But But you're right, Adam, I do I do believe that, you know, the more truth we know. That is inherently good. That I do. That is more my my perspective, my worldview. I do not believe of ignorance is bliss, kind of
Ian Binns  48:32reverse. I agree with that worldview. Of course, there are things that we can learn. That is true that we may not like when you put it all together. I still feel like yeah, it's better to know when you put it all together, again. Now, you can come with example right now that would be like, Oh, I'm betting he wouldn't like this. And then you tell me and I'd get mad. But then after that, I'll do
Adam Pryor  49:05that alone. I'll let you do in your optimism for a while. That's fun. Thank you
Rachael Jackson  49:10do in optimism. That means that it's going to concentrate more and I'm going to be even more optimistic then.
Adam Pryor  49:17That does seem to be how it works for people.
Rachael Jackson  49:20It is I'm sorry, you don't understand it. Okay, well, optimistic me. Cuz that's who I am. And I'm not gonna apologize for it. But that's okay. Um, is there anything else? Good?
Adam Pryor  49:46I don't know You were the one who said you could come up with good things about about middle age.
Rachael Jackson  49:50Yeah,
Adam Pryor  49:51I mean, I was I was just here to turn them over and make them bad. Yeah. So
Rachael Jackson  49:58I think the take no crap attitude. is a good thing.
Ian Binns  50:01All right, I wouldn't say that necessarily comes with it.
Kendra Holt-Moore  50:06And also, I could turn you potentially like just to get, I feel like I'm really with Adam in this crap attitude is something that I am, I also am like starting to feel the older I get, I was actually just talking about this with my sister who is in her mid 20s. And how we like, are definitely starting to care a lot less about what other people say, the older we get, and how that can be a great thing. But it can also make you a Karen well, so you know, good and bad. I say this for myself, too. Because I, I don't want to I don't want to be a caring. But sometimes it's it's hard not started to manager.
Adam Pryor  51:00I think what starts to like put itself out there, right? Are these there's a mixed bag of what this process of reaching middle age both in terms of like bodily health, mental health, the process of self evaluation, like dope. It can take us in different directions, much like other stages of life, right. So like, even if we talk about Middle Ages, this status quo, right between because I liked your like Rachel, like the like, curve up in the curve down. Right the like, there's development and growth. And this is exciting, but also, like I would never ever want to be a teenager again. middle aged feels much better than being a teenager. I'm watching my child reach into teenage them and going I hate you go back to being a child or skip right into being 20. But this this mid No, no, nobody likes you right now. I say that to the cat, also, but that's fine. So like, there's that element, right? And then I think you can say the same thing on the other side, right like that. Like I like your distinction between old and elderly. Right? Like there's this element of I remember speaking with a very good scholar at a conference, and she sort of halfway joked about I just can't think as fast as I used to. And sort of stopped and paused and then said, No, but I really mean it like this, this body that I am now is not who I am. Right? There's this element of like being betrayed by one's physical sensations, which in middle age, I feel like hasn't happened yet. Like you can be slightly dissatisfied or there's hair where there wasn't here before. There might be a grown. There's a grown from lifting things up and throwing children around. But right. But like in general, there's there's not that sense of like bodily betrayal that can come later. But I think there is this element. Right. And this is what I think is curious about the whole middle aged conversation where it intersects with health is this this element of like, an awareness of that status of old and elder of that eventual bodily betrayal suddenly being around the corner which can feel impending in a positive or negative way. I mean, the way I phrased it does not make it sound great. But I understand it could be phrased positively.
Ian Binns  53:39But it comes back to the mortality conversation we were having earlier.
Adam Pryor  53:42Yeah, right. I feel like like Middle Ages, this like element of like, mortality, contemplation, and depending on how positive or negative you are, right, like waiting for the other shoe to drop of being old and elderly or of having old and elderly cut short. Right. So I, my my thinking about this has like changed since I said that I would start to do it right, because we had this local pastor who died very suddenly. You know, truck came across the highway hit ambu. So Harley, and his 10 year old daughter died almost instantly. 13 year old survived, which is miraculously
Ian Binns  54:28weird. longer. That happened a
Adam Pryor  54:31week two weeks ago. Okay. So it's this, right? And I'm a fairly well educated, I did all the pastoral training stuff I can identify when I'm parallel processing. And yet it doesn't stop that process of parallel processing right like it continues to occur. And, you know, my my wife and I mccobb Lee joked while also sort of doing the process of grieving that as part of that to say You know, she she halfway of that when I said like, I'm, you know, I'm going on right and 100 miles like, also she's like, and then you'll never come back. That's what I think about every time you walk out the door with your bicycle, and you get run over, or you're going to flip over the handlebars. And it's not fun, right? In the same way that like, there's this like element that creeps in that like, you know, every time I send my pre adolescent teen who I hope will soon be 20 out on his bicycle to like ride to school, I'm like, someone's going to run you over, then you'll just be dead. And I feel like that is a hallmark of middle age that there is this, like awareness that creeps into the way in which you treat all of these other health related concerns.
Rachael Jackson  55:52Yeah, I think so. I mean, to share something sort of personal. They're one of I've always been with people who are night owls. And so my husband now like, stays out until two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning, sometimes even later. That's just his personality, and it's fine for us. But I it's fine for our relationship. But I as a person and emotionally go, oh my god, he's not coming home. Oh my God. He said he'd be home at two and it's 230. And what is going on? And just last night, like I'm asleep, and it's almost two o'clock. It's like 145 in the morning, and I see this bright light in my eyes. Like what is going on is like, I need you to get up the cars in a ditch. And my heart just like skipped a beat. I was just like, but you're in the house. So you're okay. Like, okay, so the cars in a ditch, like that was one of my big that was that was a big fear. And oh, yeah, I'm like trying to figure he's okay. But he's great. But he like he was the one that shined the flashlight in my face. He's like, you need to wake up. But having confronting it in those ways, saying, This is exactly my fear. And so every time you leave the house, this is what I feel like.
Adam Pryor  57:07But I think it's that element to that. It's like, it's not just your own mortality, that's part of this, right? Like, it's this recognition of is literally everyone else's mortality, and how that sort of works for you. Right?
Rachael Jackson  57:19Everyone's going to die.
Adam Pryor  57:21Right? Like, every time Rachel's, like every time you walk out the door with your bicycle, I'm afraid you're gonna die. I'm like, Well, every time you gave birth, I was pretty sure that I was going to be parenting by myself. So, you know, live with it. But also, like,
Rachael Jackson  57:36but it is this sort of shillington that three times you do this every week, just like
Adam Pryor  57:41my level of intense fear was justified, because that's a horrible process birthing. I mean, it's beautiful, but also, like, try Holy smokes
Ian Binns  57:50on that we. So while we were going through the classes when I was pregnant with the twins, and there were classes specific for multiples, right. And so they were talking about, it'll have to be a C section. Sometimes it could be emergency c sections. And sometimes there could be complications, but and so they were trying to tell the dads that, you know, there's a chance that if you're in a surgery, there's a complication that may have to whisk you out of the room, but everything's gonna be okay. So they were telling us, and I just raised my hand and said, yeah, that doesn't work for me. And they just said, What do you mean doesn't work for you? I said, So you're telling me that there could be a potential that for like an hour, I would have no idea what's going on with my wife who just gave birth these two babies. And you want me to be like, Oh, cool. And I just I kept pushing back. And finally, but and helped me change your perspective, saying that? Well, honey, if that did happen, it would help me knowing that you are with our children. Making sure they're okay. Right. And so the perspective had to shift for me, but I see your point on that one. I mean, it was like, You can't just say that and then be like, but it's all good, you're fine. And it made while waiting for them to give her the epidural because it was a C section. And so I had to wait outside of the operating room for them to do that process. And I would see because we had two teams of doctors, nurses and stuff for the babies. And then of course, the doctor and the nurses for and that they're all walking in and out and I'm just sitting there staring down going in and out. And I did that that was tough. I was those exciting moment. But for those few moments, it was terrifying. I
Adam Pryor  59:31mean, I think the intensity of those sorts of moments that you have, like earlier in your life are now spread at a low level across every day. Zack is never gonna let me lead an episode ever again.
Ian Binns  59:47I can't wait till we start with like the beginning of what we do with stories and you get to tell a story and then Okay, everyone. What
Rachael Jackson  59:52do you guys have no idea how to pull us out of this ditch.
Kendra Holt-Moore  59:57We will knock on the door of death.
Ian Binns  1:00:04We're right now we're approaching the door next time we're just
Adam Pryor  1:00:07going right up to it. Yeah,
Rachael Jackson  1:00:10that was my Zach that's it. I
Adam Pryor  1:00:12got an attack that clearly the
Rachael Jackson  1:00:14death's door Yeah. Not gonna happen next time next time knocking on
Adam Pryor  1:00:19door knocking on death's door. This time, just hairs in places where they're not supposed to be.

Medical Ethics Part 3 (When is a Life a Life?)

Episode 87
For many people, pregnancy is an exciting and hopeful time, but for carriers of hereditary diseases, it can be a nightmare. For centuries, matchmakers and family historians have done their best to arrange marriages that would result in healthy offspring, but with modern genetic testing, we can take all the guesswork out of it. Couples can nearly handpick their future children and monitor every step of their development for potential problems. While there are so many opportunities for human flourishing, there are also plenty of moral and ethical quandaries to consider. When does a living tissue become a human being with rights? When does a human being take on the image of God or develop a soul? You might be surprised at what our sacred scriptures and religious traditions do and do not have to say on the matter! 
 
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
 
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
 
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis 
 
 
Transcript
This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors. 
 
Zack Jackson 00:05
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are Zack Jackson UCC pastor and Reading Pennsylvania. And before I had kids, I wished that they would inherit my thick brown hair, which I had gotten from my father and his father before them. And at least one of my children has it.
 
Rachael Jackson 00:32
Beautiful. Rachael Jackson, Rabbi at Agoudas, Israel, congregation Hendersonville, North Carolina. And before I had a child, I wished that they would inherit a combination of my dark hair, but my husband's thick, wavy, wonderful hair.
 
Zack Jackson 00:55
Well, as it turns out, I have two sons. And one of them has thick blond hair, and the other one has thin brown hair. So genetics, how about you how to work out for you,
 
Rachael Jackson 01:06
so works out. So my husband's hair is a blonde with some red undertones. And his beard is, you know, definitely blonde, brown, red combination. I have for those that haven't seen pictures of me, I have extremely dark chocolate brown hair, where it looks black in some light. And our son that has just straight up watered down chocolate brown hair kind of looks like oh, maybe cappuccino or something like that. And its thickness is a combination to it's not nearly as thick and whatever, I can't think of the right adjective to describe my husband's hair. But it's also not as thin as mine, I have very fine hair. So my son's hair is not very fine. But it has a mind of its own. And that's just hilarious. And now that he's seven, I was under the impression that maybe we should start combing it or something. We hadn't really before this. combed it. And so I tried to do that the other day, and he looks at me and he's just like, I don't care. I went, Okay, do your life. I'm not gonna carry you there. That's fine. That's fine.
 
Zack Jackson 02:31
You know, of all of the hard to believe crazy. Out of this world, complicated parts about this universe, genetics are one of the things that really blows my mind. Like it's just sexual reproduction in and of itself, that you can take the building blocks of one creature and another creature, and just like strip them down into a soup, and then make something new, that isn't like 5050. That could be any number of proportion of whatever of either one, and you have no idea what's going to come out the other side. And yet, what does come out the other side is often fairly recognizable, that you'd be like, yeah, my son really does look like me. And he's got my nervous tics. And he's my other son does not and my one son is allergic to the sun, which is not really allergic to it. It's a it's a weird short circuit in your brain where you get too much light and you sneeze. My mom had it. I have it. And one of my sons has it. But not the others. No, not the other.
 
Rachael Jackson 03:43
Yeah, well, genetics is so bizarre, maybe that's why we'd like Legos. Right? Like imagine that, that are four base pairs that make up our DNA at that combine. One again, from a scientific standpoint, we need one male and one female in our genetics to make this happen. combined these genes and next thing you know, you get a completely different structure. But what's amazing is that it's so similar. Unlike Legos, right? Where you sort of take one person, you strip them down to their base pairs, you take the other person strip them down to their base pairs, you combine it and it looks like their child's like it looks like their results. It could have the the possibilities that it could be something completely different is amazing. Right? So when you have there's this concept of recessive gene, add dominant gene. So if you have, let's say, for example, that you have two people who have brown eyes and their child is overwhelmingly Going to then have brown eyes. But perhaps let's say the mom, her mom has blue eyes, right? So this, this would be child, this hypothetical child's grandparent has blue eyes. So there's the potential of this child to then have blue eyes. But it's such a low potential, because it is a recessive gene, not a dominant gene. And that question of what is recessive and what is dominant? And what is just, you know, not for us to decide, and it's just sort of like a grab bag. And where are these things? And do we know where they are? What are the traits? How do we find them and mapping that on to this genetic code, or the genome is absolutely fascinating. And humans have their own particular genome, fruit flies, like anything that has DNA has a genome, this is one of the things that we talked about several weeks ago, when we were talking with Professor Dan Janis, and looking at the genome of these viruses, right, so they were using RNA, and we use DNA, but it's the same sort of concept that we can figure out where these things are, and what happens if we mess with them. And, and that's where the conversation that I wanted to go today is what happens when we mess with them. So in our series, we've been talking, sort of going through the life cycle of people. So last time, we were able to talk about puberty and different ideas there. And so this week, I really wanted to focus on sort of the next stage of life, which is pregnancy and all the things that come up for people around that time of life. And a caveat, something that I feel that I, I need to say, not just that I feel like I need to say, if a person or people choose not to have children, that is their choice. And that is a perfectly good way to live. And if people choose to have one, if people choose to have 10, that is their choice. And so that's something that I also want to be very clear today that just because we're talking about this does not mean that it is the way to live in our worlds, and I feel the societal pressure that, wow, you're not really, you're only having one, what's wrong with you, or you're choosing to be child free, not to child less. And so there is nothing less about not choosing to have a child. So even if you yourself, our listeners have not had a child or choosing not to have a child, I think this conversation can still be important because it's going to bring in questions of ethics, and medical ethics. So I just I just wanted to put that out there. And also I'll be using the terms male and female to identify rather than gendered terms of woman and man. Because we recognize and we support and our allies, to our LGBTQ family, and our friends. And so we recognize that the human species needs to have male and female in order to reproduce, how a person expresses themselves and who they are gendered is not necessarily part of that conversation then. So I just wanted to add those caveats in those that understanding in our conversation today. So all of that, all of that to say, it's totally amazing that we can take DNA from two different people split it up the middle and then combine it and create another creature like another human being not a creature a human being.
 
Zack Jackson 08:46
Not just a random,
 
Rachael Jackson 08:47
just some random
 
Zack Jackson 08:49
person chances
 
Rachael Jackson 08:52
are like that question. So I, I carried my child. And so when I was pregnant with him, people would say so what are you having? And like, That's such a weird question. It's like a dinosaur. I'm having a Stegosaurus like. This is like, I don't know if Nicole has a question. Or if you ever had that question on her behalf
 
Zack Jackson 09:14
a time people are so preoccupied with unborn fetuses, genitals, it's unsettling.
 
Rachael Jackson 09:21
Yes. Like, what else? Do we ever talk about it? Like really? When Elsa read or, or worse? So are you going to have another? Like, when else do we casually talk about people's sex lives? Like that is literally none of your business. It would be like asking the question, so are you and your partner having unprotected sex tonight?
 
Zack Jackson 09:45
Yeah, anytime a couple says like we're trying for another one. That's all I think is like wow, you just told me that you and your your partner are just going to have a lot of sex. Thanks for that. I didn't need to know that.
 
Rachael Jackson 09:56
This is like somehow in our semi period in society, we're allowed to be that invasive and that open about this topic.
 
Zack Jackson 10:07
It's someone like, So, have you thought about getting a nose job? And like, you know what this is my body? Maybe we don't talk about this right now, it seems kind of.
 
Rachael Jackson 10:19
Right, it seems kind of not appropriate, because we're just not in that kind of relationship. And that's, that's a boundary crosser. But we, what we do we ask that question of like, so what are you having, which is a question of genitalia. And we now, in the last, I'm just gonna not go through the whole medical thing. So I'm just going to use very broad, broad decades, within the last 100 years, we've now been able to be clarified what the genitalia will be, of an of a fetus have a yet to be born fetus using ultrasound techniques, right. So plus or minus 60 years, we've been able to do this, which is pretty cool. But it doesn't really actually change anything, just FYI. doesn't doesn't change anything. But now we know. And then, within the last few decades, we've been able to do more than ultrasounds. ultrasounds give us a glimpse into what is going on. And we hopefully, focus on the genitalia. And I say hopefully, because that means everything else is fine. That means the heartbeat is going well, that means the shape of the head is forming. That means you can see the organs that are happening and forming and that the brain is going right that it's all connecting. And it's working. And if you're getting to the point where you're really excited about if it's a boy or a girl, then that means everything else is okay. And that's not always the case. That's not always the case with ultrasound. So what do we do? What do we do? But before we get to that conversation, I want to take a step back, when we're talking about recessive and dominant genes. Now we're gonna get into some odd territory to have ethnicity. So have you heard of the royal blood disease?
 
Zack Jackson 12:31
In royal blood disease, like in Russia? Oh, in Russia, are we talking about like, the Czar's that are so inbred that they have all these medical problems. They had a whole there was a whole stick on that on 30 rock for for a while.
 
Rachael Jackson 12:50
Okay. So there's there's two, there's two royal families in the European continent that are pretty famous for medical issues. One is sort of the Russian side, which is Haemophilia. Which is sort of a royal blood disease royal, because a lot of the Royals had it. And the other is the Hapsburgs where they were so inbred that it caused massive issues. And by the end of the line, the person was sterile, right, there was just so many genetic issues that the person was sterile and couldn't then have any more of their own children. And there there went the end of the line. Right, so the Habsburgs and that, so that's an inbreeding. But there's other ways of of Ashwin is the way I'm looking for, of being in relation ship in a small group without having these dramatic inbreeding issues. One of those that's fairly common that I'm mostly intimately familiar with, is the Ashkenazi Jewish list. And the reason that that exists, is Ashkenazi Jews or central or Eastern European Jews. And for a very, very long time, it was illegal punishable by death to marry a Jewish person. And it was illegal punishable by death to convert to Judaism. So what do you do with our population? Right, they just breed with each other. Luckily, the population was large enough that it didn't cause these massive inbreeding issues that we see in in some cultures or and then the Hapsburgs. But that has caused some genetic issues and genetic traits. And we know that now. And one of the things so there is this idea of genetic screening between two people and to see what is their genetic recessive disorders recessive meaning they themselves are its carrier status, right? It's, you carry this gene doesn't affect you, but you hold it. And you could pass it along to your child. And the question is, if you're holding it, and your partner is holding it, your child's 25% gonna get it. Right. Like that's. So if you're holding something and your partner is holding something, but neither one of you have it, your child will have a 25% chance of getting it,
 
Zack Jackson 15:30
and then a 75% chance of being a holder if they don't get it.
 
Rachael Jackson 15:34
But 50% chance of being a holder and a 25% chance of not even carrying if not even being a carrier. Got it? Beautiful, right? That's sort of how these things work of all genes being equal. That's how it would work. Well, the Ashkenazi Jewish population has around 100, pretty nasty diseases, some less nasty than others, right? Most are achy, but not traumatic or disastrous. So what we do is if we have an ethnically, and this is where I'm where I'm saying, It's getting a little sticky, because we recognize that people are people. And every, you know, diversity is amazing. And we want people to just love and live and Yay. But the reality is that if you have and that also, I just want to say that when a person converts to Judaism, you're Jewish. But genetically doesn't have the same gene pool.
 
Zack Jackson 17:01
You mentioned Ashkenazi Jews. Yes. That's not the only group. And before I met you, I didn't know this. So I imagine a lot of our listeners also don't know, these distinctive genetic groups.
 
Rachael Jackson 17:16
Thank you. I does, I'm so absorbed in that world that I forget that Thank you. So Ashkenazi Jews showed up in central Eastern Europe, plus or minus 1000 years ago. Right? So we'll just use that timeframe. Where else were Jews in the world about 1000 years ago, in what's considered the ancient Near East or the Middle East, or however you want to understand? Israel, Egypt, that part of the world, right? And then in the 1500s 1492, not talking Columbus talking, the expulsion of Jews, right, and these are Sephardic Jews. And that's the, that's one of the other terms, right? Sephardic Jews are those that come from Spain, or the Iberian Peninsula to be more accurate. But 500 years ago, they were kicked out of there, and they had to go somewhere. And so where did they go? They went to the Ottoman Empire or South America. So those are Sephardic Jews, as the primary differences. There's also different rights are it e Yemenite, its Iraqi, etc, those are much smaller populations, mostly coming from a mix of Sephardic and the local populations. So even the Jews that are living in India, and those were, most of them were considered Sephardic Jews, right? Because prior to the prior to the expulsion in 1492, their families came from Spain. So when we look at a genetic, when we look at from a genetic standpoint, it's really two groups of people, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi,
 
Zack Jackson 19:03
and the Arctic have had more intermingling outside of their own group, BINGO,
 
Rachael Jackson 19:09
BINGO, because Spain and Portugal was like, get out of here. And so where did they go? They spread. Right? They went to lots of different places, and they intermingled. So their genetic their gene pool was much larger. Ashkenazi, not so much, tiny little shuttles. And the entire shuttle would be picked up and move to a different place.
 
Zack Jackson 19:36
And so being Christians are awful,
 
Rachael Jackson 19:38
right?
 
Zack Jackson 19:40
Historically, I think that's pretty uncontested. Yeah. So
 
Rachael Jackson 19:44
the Jews living in those regions, then we're had a much different experience in the Sephardic Jews. So their ability to find someone to marry was challenging. Without going into all of the details of how not quite accurate This was Fiddler on the Roof. If anyone has seen that one of the challenges that tavia has is he has to marry off his daughters. And there aren't any. There aren't any suitable Jews in their city. Right. So where does he has to find them from elsewhere? Right that that that kind of challenge of like, Okay, I've got seven daughters. What do I do? And they they brought in a matchmaker. Yay. Right? And if no one's got the song, right, Matchmaker, matchmaker maker, find me a Kashmir catch. And so they did the matchmakers job and this is getting us back to the genetic question. The matchmakers job was not just to match them with someone who could produce children, someone who could keep a roof over their their heads and, you know, happiness and love sure, but that's that's a new issue. But the matchmakers job way back when, right pre pre maternity was to know this family, did they have any issues? And were there lots of issues? Did they lose children not miscarriage? But did did their children die at young ages? And knowing that piece of information and saying Ah, and I have a family over here, right? This, this, this bride's family her, her family has had all these little graves, these little baby graves, and this groom's family, his family has all these little graves for children, do not combine them. Right. And they just know that, again, they didn't understand genetics, but they knew that there was something in this family's blood that caused these issues. And if the same issues arose in someone else's gene pool or someone else's bloodline, you don't combine those people. So that have that's one of the roles of the Ashkenazi Jewish matchmaker was to make sure that those genetic issues sort of stopped with the families as much as they could. So what we do now, is we actually do genetic pre testing, test the adults. So Zack, if I can ask the personal question, did you and Nicole have this question or wrestle with this? Or did anyone even bring this up to you to have your own genetics tested?
 
Zack Jackson 22:41
know, a little, that would have been so strange and invasive, and no one would have ever thought to do that.
 
Rachael Jackson 22:51
Okay. And after you had conceived, did that even come up?
 
Zack Jackson 22:56
There were no I know. They they know. Like, maybe a little bit when we're thinking about like, well, heart disease runs in both of our families. So we just need to make sure we're eating right. But like, that's, that's kind of,
 
Rachael Jackson 23:15
right, right. For our segment of the population, we actually talk about pre genetic testing, where we say okay, if you two want if you're both genetically Ashkenazi Jewish, let's get you pre tested and see if you're a carrier, see if this is a recessive gene. One of the most famous ones that people might have heard about is Tay Sachs. And Tay Sachs is a neurodegenerative disease, basically, where there's a piece of fat, right that the brain just turns to fat, rather than being a muscle. And because it's a muscle, or should be a muscle, it controls things. And starting around six months old, it just stops. So if you've ever been around a child, an infant who's about six months old, they're not. They're just starting to develop any ability to have language, right, just as an ooze and whatever, just somehow forming things. They're just beginning to really sit up and hold themselves, right, but they're not really mobile, right? They're not crawling, they're not walking, but they're there but you can just plop them down on the floor and be like, okay, here's your key ring, have go to town, right, those plastic keys. And starting around that age with Tay Sachs, that's when it starts to become degenerative to the point of losing all muscle control, going blind, going deaf, having zero physical ability and eventually suffocating with lungs and most children die by the age of five, if not sooner, and it is a horrific death, the the dying, the degeneration is traumatic and the death itself is awful. Well, that's a sex. And that's one of several diseases that are like that. So we suggest, and that I think I have to double check with the numbers are, there's been much more intermarriage recently, which is good for the gene pool. Not gonna say how it is for the religion, but it's good for the gene pool where the numbers are going down. But I one point I looked at was something like one and 21 and Trey were carriers of Ashkenazi Yeah, huge. And if if anyone has been to an ultra orthodox enclave, there is a lot more infant graves than the general population for all these different genetic issues.
 
Zack Jackson 25:53
So are people getting people are getting tested before they get married?
 
Rachael Jackson 25:56
Correct. So they can see if they're right, are you a carrier? And if you're not a carrier, okay, then Hmm.
 
Zack Jackson 26:06
I like if, if you were to get tested before you got married, and you found that you're both carriers, right? Like, would that change your decision to get married at all?
 
Rachael Jackson 26:19
What do you think? What would you do?
 
Zack Jackson 26:24
I think, well, if I'm back when I was getting ready to get married, I think I could have found out that Nicole was, you know, secretly, a Martian, or she had a disease where her hair would catch on fire every 10 years or something. And I would still probably if married her and be like, well figure it out down the line, I don't care that you've been cursed by a witch or something. That's futures x problem. Right? Right. Because has Zach was puppy dog love, and so I wouldn't have cared later down the line, though. You know, as time went on, and we thought about kids and thought, like, that's just gonna be, that's gonna be so dangerous, potentially. I don't know if I want to do that. And then maybe we'll have felt regret. I don't know. This is this is all brand new thought experiments to me.
 
Rachael Jackson 27:13
So let's keep going with that thought experiment. Right? So let's say you do get married. Because love triumphs and love is amazing. And kids don't make marriage, right. Marriage is its own entity. And so you can say, Yes, we choose to start a family. Turns out, we don't want to do that to us. Right. Very few people, I think would say, Oh, I'm a carrier and my partner's a carrier. Let's try it. Those are good odds. No, those are not good odds. Those are bad odds, because the result is so bad. So the answer is no, let's not do this, quote unquote, the natural way? Well, let's say you're just so tied to seeing those ticks in your kids to knowing that your kid is like you, genetically, that you're just tied to that idea. So what are some options? Right, exactly. You know, what, what are your options?
 
Zack Jackson 28:17
No, I would have no idea. I mean, if both partners are carriers, yeah. I mean, we don't have the technology to like, isolate and splice out those Sure
 
Rachael Jackson 28:26
do. What should we do?
 
Zack Jackson 28:29
No, we do not.
 
Rachael Jackson 28:31
Here's what we do have Stop it. We have the ability to create zygotes where you take a sperm and you take an egg in IVF. Right. So you make the woman like, okay, so just a little bit of medical technology. And sorry, I'm dominating the conversation. Take a little bit of technology.
 
Zack Jackson 28:49
I glad it's not me dominating the conversation about pregnancy and, and Jewish genetics. Very appropriate that way. Thanks. So Turkey,
 
Rachael Jackson 29:01
generally speaking, a woman oscillates and yields one egg per monthly cycle. Right. And then if things if, if intercourse happens at that time, and everything is right, then there's pregnancy that's able to happen. But you don't want to just take one at a time when you're trying to do IVF. You want a whole bunch, so you just like load the woman up with hormones and all these other things. And then you go in and you grab a whole bunch of eggs at the same time. It's like, I got 10.
 
Zack Jackson 29:38
I can't help but imagine like a farmer, right? We're doing picking chicken eggs,
 
29:43
bacon, chicken eggs. That's right.
 
Zack Jackson 29:45
This is all very scientific,
 
Rachael Jackson 29:47
tinier, tiny little pinchers, right. You take all of these, and you take the sperm and you take you take a sperm and you're just like, Hi, meet your partner, and they come together in a petri dish. Or test to write test two babies. And we've had that technology 40 ish years, right? And now what but the sperm and the egg get together and you're just like, Oh, it's so beautiful. Let's make more of us. And they go from that one to two to four to eight and then pause. you pause everything at eight cells.
 
Zack Jackson 30:20
What do you mean, you pause it,
 
Rachael Jackson 30:21
you stop the reactions from continuing you stop that. You freeze them. Like I don't, I don't know the science behind it.
 
Zack Jackson 30:30
Like actually freezing them in and like it like
 
Rachael Jackson 30:33
you just like you put it like you put it in spaces. That's not the right word. But like, you just stop the reaction.
 
Zack Jackson 30:40
This is all science fiction to me. So
 
Rachael Jackson 30:41
you go. And then you take one of those eight cells. You do this, lots of sperm, lots of eggs, and you take one of those eight cells, and you look at it and you say, Alright, this is going to tell me all of the genetics of the future fetus and child. Oh, yeah. And you can say, Ah, this child will have Tay Sachs, this child will have cystic fibrosis, this child will have brown eyes, brown hair, generally be tall will have no heart disease will be male. And 1/8 of a set 1/8 of this will tell you that and then you say, ah, I've taken a look. I know that this one doesn't have a six it doesn't have any genetic disorders. Fantastic. let it continue to grow. Let me pop it in your uterus, or a surrogate unit uterus if yours is not a good place to grow things. And then you grow the child's and you're fine.
 
31:42
Helmets off.
 
Zack Jackson 31:44
So wait.
 
Rachael Jackson 31:46
I'm blowing Zach's mine. Okay, so I know that I know that audio and Zach's head is like literally flooded?
 
Zack Jackson 31:53
I know, we should have been recording the video and smacking into my microphone and everything. Yeah. Okay. So you get a bunch of bunch of fertilized eggs. And, and then the doctor says to you, all right, we've got 16 here, and seven of them are with are not going to have k sex? Do you then get the choice? Like, do you want a boy? Do you want a girl? Do you want to tall kid a short kid? Or are they sequencing the full genome are just looking for those markers?
 
Rachael Jackson 32:27
And that's where this becomes an ethical question. Where are we asking? We I believe I Rachel believe that when we say I don't want the trauma. And I know I'm using that word again. And the tragedy of bringing a life into this world only to see it suffer and die. And we are preventing that. And that is amazing. And I completely support that. I think we should use our technology in those ways. The question then becomes, how much information do you get? Because yes, generally speaking, when you're doing the Royal you, when you're doing these investigations of the genome, it's all found, you know, what gender you know what sex it is, you know, what? hair color and all of these other things that we have genetic markers for, you know what those are, and they test for them all. And so you can have this picture of what this child could look like. And so the question becomes, okay, now you have four, three are male, and one is female. Which do you implant? Who gets that choice? Should anyone get that? Drake's? What do you think?
 
Zack Jackson 34:14
This is where it'll be really helpful to have more guests on the show.
 
Rachael Jackson 34:19
Put the pressure off of you.
 
Zack Jackson 34:24
Yeah, right, take the pressure off of me because it's somehow feels different when we're talking about minimizing suffering and death and weeding out something like Tay Sachs, or something else that would inevitably end in suffering and death. And then there's like the next level down, where it's like this could potentially cause suffering and death. So like markers for heart disease, or diabetes or something like that. That is may cause suffering down the line. But it's it's kind of your baseline average it sucks to be human suffering. And then there's like things that won't really affect that. But maybe the family ones that are more cosmetic, you know about height and, and weight and hair color, hair color, eye color, things like that. And then there's like this whole other category of things that are like, would cause social suffering, right? Like, you might say, Wow, it is much better to be born a man in this day and age. So if I have a choice, I'm going to raise somebody who's going to be able to get ahead easier in the world, and be like, I'm worried. So we're gonna have a son to pass on our name and get a good job, we'll make him tall, tall, dark, handsome, as best as we can. And set him up for success. And then that feels like a different ballgame that feels like custom humans and but not custom humans in the way of like designing a genome and then spitting out something. But custom humans in a sort of process of elimination, wasteful kind of a way that then feels like if we're fertilizing a bunch of eggs, and only keeping the healthy ones, because we're trying to minimize suffering and death, for some reason that feels morally better than creating a bunch just so that we can find the one that's the best, that feels a little more shady. For all of the nerds out here, my my brain is immediately going to all of those hours I spent breeding Pokemon and Pokemon field recently on switch, and putting two in there catching an egg checking to see how strong it is, and then releasing it into the wild, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of strays running around the world right now because I wanted to find the perfect one. And now when I kept and trained, and I even in a video game I felt a little dirty about
 
Rachael Jackson 37:09
that's good. I think that means your ethics is kind of in check. But those are the questions that people face every time they go through this process.
 
Zack Jackson 37:21
Yeah. And so then created, they're not intentionally,
 
Rachael Jackson 37:25
right. And then the question becomes, who gets to decide if there is a decision to be made? Again, so let's let's just agree that the suffering the immediate and error, irreversible or blanking on the word, guaranteed suffering and death, that were just that those, those are just not going to be implanted? Right? We just, we just, that's part of the reason for doing this, right? We're just saying, okay, no, but now we've got four healthy ones. And let's keep it at a reasonable number for that you implant to now and then you can have a sibling later and implant to in a couple of years. Right. But if you have more than that, like, who's making the decision? Is it the parents? Is it the doctor who's doing the implantation? Is it the geneticist who found this information? Right, so from my perspective, we can we have to have layers of trust and layers of ignorance. We where the trust is we trust the geneticists finds the ones that would cause suffering, and said, these ones, these ones aren't going to be good, right? To use a very subjective term. These five are great. And I'm not going to tell you anything more about it. And then the doctor, the implanter, and the parent say, Okay, I've got five good eggs. How many do you want to try now? And that's all that that's all they know. It creates a barrier, but then we'd need to check and balance with the geneticist to make sure that the genetic so then the geneticist doesn't have any say into Oh, well did. The geneticist really likes girls that the geneticist really likes brown hair, right there, that's what's good or bad.
 
Zack Jackson 39:22
Right? And then years down the road, there's gonna be some big breaking story about this geneticist who was like a white supremacists, right. patriarchy guy who's been intentionally implanting only men
 
Rachael Jackson 39:36
for why they're only boys, right? The rest are bad, right? So there has to be some sort of check in that situation of what's identified and someone to then audit using a bookkeeping term, right to audit what this geneticist is doing. So in Judaism, the answer is at this point, right because we have questions and answers called Holocaust. response and response basically says, if it's going to be suffering and death, don't implant them and just destroy the embryos. Other than that, anything other than that heart disease, Down syndrome, right, diabetes, things that just naturally occur that might make it harder in society. No, you don't get to abort, or you don't get to choose to not implant those ones for those reasons. You say, yeah, I've had enough kids. The difference in Judaism, which I personally disagree with some of this is from a gendered standpoint, or a sex standpoint, where if you already have two boys, you're allowed to choose a female one. Or if you already have two females, you're allowed to choose a male one, to ensure a balance in your nuclear family. So that's, that's sort of where the Holocaust rests.
 
Zack Jackson 41:06
Okay, it feels like a concession that someone made,
 
Rachael Jackson 41:08
right. But it's, it's exactly that you get a little bit more, because if you if if this if you're both carriers, and you want to have multiple children, and you're like, Ah, well, I've already had two boys. Make sure that this one's a girl, then they can. Mm hmm. So, but now let's, let's get forward on your ethics. Let's say you don't go through that testing, like the majority of people don't. And you're pregnant. Yay. Yay. And you have an ultrasound and something's not Yay. And they ask the question, do you want an amniocentesis? Or do you want some other genetic testing of the fetus and amniocentesis is basically where they go into the belly, and into the amniotic fluid, take some of the fluid out and test that fluid, which means that they're puncturing the amniotic sac, which is basically the baby's life. Yeah, right. So if they puncture it, and something goes wrong, there's a 1% chance of miscarriage at that point, which is a decently high percentage, for a question mark, right, of what's going to come from this. So what do you do then?
 
Zack Jackson 42:24
defer 100% to my wife. I feel like with most of these decisions that have to do with childbearing and, and the creation of life, that these decisions should be made by the one carrying the life and fostering the life much more than the person who had a little bit of say in the beginning. But I think at the end, I know what what she would say would be, okay, well, what what are we going to do with the information we get? And are we considering terminating the pregnancy? If we find that it's something awful? And if that's the case, then it's worth taking the chance? If we're not going to terminate the pregnancy, that it's not worth taking the chance? And we'll see what happens.
 
Rachael Jackson 43:21
Yeah, exactly. I think that's wonderful way of looking at it. If you ask the question, what do you do with the answer? If the answer is nothing, right, that you're doing nothing with the answer that you receive, then why ask the question
 
Zack Jackson 43:35
is just for peace of mind.
 
Rachael Jackson 43:39
Great, like, why? Right? Nobody asked that question. Nobody had the ability to ask that question. 100 years ago, right, didn't have that ability. So why is the question now if you're not going to do anything about it? which then gets us to the religious side of things. So Zack, if you could tell us about the various stages of what life is like, when does life happen? When does a soul happen? When does like in your tradition? When do those pieces happen?
 
Zack Jackson 44:21
Well, the various strands of Christianity are all over the place, as is true with almost anything. I came from a church that taught very strictly that life, human life begins at conception, at the moment that the sperm enters the egg and they do their little dance, and there is a single cell. Or maybe when that single spouse splits into two, that's when life exists. That's when there is a soul present. That's when this is a human being and anything you do to That human being in that womb, that would be equated to what you would have done to a person, an adult human. Essentially. We were that church who protested at Planned Parenthood and had awful giant banners of aborted fetuses and just leave without those people. And I'm horrified now. That tradition I'm in now, the United Church of Christ is kind of work. congregational denominations, every church is allowed to do their own thing. But from a national standpoint, they would say that life begins when a child is on their own, when a child is out of the mother, and is able to live by their own means.
 
Rachael Jackson 45:56
Almost a medical definition then, right? Yes, is it it's a viable, that it's viable,
 
Zack Jackson 46:01
that it's viable on its own. So after, after birth, essentially. So we're not talking like, you know, 36 weeks or whatever, but like, after the child is out on their own, then they are a, a life, and we just, we don't bother ourselves with the question of souls, entering bodies and whatnot. One person, I pointed out that up to 14 days, a, an embryo can still become twins. And so after 14 days is when the soul enters the body, because then you'd need two souls, if it was going to be twins. And so that's the moment that it happens. And when I heard that, it said, I thought to myself, this whole thing feels very arbitrary. Like, we are really trying to shove very ancient, almost mystical ideas about how the physical and the spiritual intermingle in what makes humans special from animals. And we are trying to shove that now into scientific understandings of life. And it gets messy, and then we pretend like it's not messy, and that makes it nastier.
 
Rachael Jackson 47:32
Is there a differentiation of something which is alive, and something which is a human life?
 
Zack Jackson 47:44
modern progressive Christians would say, Yes. That though, like a tissue in the uterus, is alive on its on its own, it is also so heavily connected to the mother, that it is, in some sense, a part of it. And is is just is not a human being as itself an autonomous being. Just definitionally, I mean, my own perspective, is that I try not to have a perspective because it's not my body. And I would rather listen to the people who have those bodies and have those experiences to tell me what is happening within them.
 
Rachael Jackson 48:31
Although I will push you on that and say that, especially as a, as a man, being an ally, is also important. And so to understand where your ally ship feels in accordance with your morality is important. But I appreciate that I applaud the idea that the person who's making these decisions as the person going through these decisions themselves,
 
Zack Jackson 48:59
it also helps that I no longer have a, an individual theology of a human soul. Which then kind of changes a lot of the conversation. Like if you believe that there is an immaterial spiritual thingness that resides within you, and without you, that enters into you, or is formed into you, and then once you die is freed, to continue its everlasting life in whatever afterlife, like that idea, which honestly, is a bit more Hindu than biblical. This is the Atman we're talking about more than what the Bible would talk about as a spirit, a soul, a life a person or whatever. And I mean, when I say Bible, I mean both Christian and Hebrew Bibles. A lot is read into it. I think what the the the Christian Bible Promises is a resurrection of humanity. That the dead ur dead, ur dead are dead. And that the promises not that they die and then are washed away in some ethereal state. But the promise is that the God who remembers them will resurrect them and give them new life here on earth with a physical Earth and a physical garden and trees and wildlife and all those things, there's not really a promise other than in a couple of isolated places, in Paul's writings that talk about being freed from this mortal coil. There's not really a whole lot of indication of an individual eternal soul that is present with in a person, despite the fact that it's so present within Christian theology historically, it's not really biblical. And so if you no longer have that hinderance theologically speaking, then this question becomes a lot more scientific. Like if that if that embryo that is growing into a fetus, as growing into a child within the womb is does not have an eternal essence to it. It doesn't have a them that is them that is then that is them yet, then it's an entirely different ethical question, then it is that thing, a, a divine, a carrier of the Divine?
 
Rachael Jackson 51:23
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you for, for adding to that I've not really thought about it in in those ways. That also
 
Zack Jackson 51:31
might get me in trouble. So I'm sorry, all of you who are listening, who are a member of my church, don't tell anyone. All three of you.
 
Rachael Jackson 51:42
And I'll just say, gay Judaism, big
 
Zack Jackson 51:51
man,
 
Rachael Jackson 51:52
because we basically have this idea that there are so we don't just stick to the Bible. The Bible just influences other conversations such as the Tom Budd, which is really just 2700 pages of people arguing with each other. And what does this mean? And what does this mean, and going on from there, and in these pages, one of those examples, basically says, there's this, this I got, I just got, I just got to actually share the share the line, right, so we've all heard, and a hammer Robbie's code, right? An eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth and iron for a lar, or a limb for a limb a life for a life. And there's so many ways of answering What does that mean? You know, it's like God's revenge. And then the answer is, actually, it's proportionality. And another is actually it's just talking five different kinds of damages and using the body as an example of that. Yeah, that's that's like, Torah gymnastics right there. So we, we still have that, right. So if you keep that in mind, and that that's written down in the Bible, right, written down in the Old Testament, and then there's this line in Exodus 21. Exodus 2122. For anyone that would like to check on me. It says, If men strive together, right, so you got a bar brawl going on? Right? just let's just set the scene. I'm just gonna quote the whole thing. You got a bar brawl? Right? The bar brawl happens. And this woman comes out and says, Come on, has been Time to go home. Like you got to get work in the morning. She's just like, walking up there and she's pregnant. And and like a fight ensues and the non husband accidentally kicks her and hurts her. And she miscarries. Right. And that's it. Like nothing else. She's not even bruised in the ribs. She doesn't have a scrape on her knee. She just miscarries caveat parents medical aside, it's not just a miscarriage, it can be very traumatic. I am so sorry if that's ever happened to you. I honor that challenge. That's not the point of this conversation. But I want to recognize that miscarriages are not just miscarriages. Close parentheses. So she's fine otherwise, physically. So then they say, Oh, hey, you damaged my fetus. You owe me money. The person who did the damages What is he supposed to do? And it says, yet no harm follow, he shall surely be fined according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him and he shall pay as the judge determines because the only harm came to the loss of the fetus, not to her, but it's in the same same category as a limb for a limb alive. For a life, but it was a miscarriage. And the person who caused it is not paying with any body part, including his life from that lie and there is the not so far leap of, therefore the fetus is not a life. Hmm. It had potential hay, that could have been a boy that he could have worked in the farm and you owe me for that damages, you hurt my cow, you hurt my property, and therefore you owe me for the damages of my property. But it is not a life. And it's from that line that more than that, that our understanding of So when is this life thing happening. And there are other lines that I won't go into the gruesome nature of what they talk about, basically, it says up to 40 days, it's like water. So 40 days, which, scientifically speaking, you know, it's about six weeks. So if anything happens before six weeks, whatever, like, it's just like water, like there's literally nothing else, or we're not even going to do anything if if a miscarriage or an abortion, a spontaneous or an intentional miscarriage happens, great man gonna do anything about that. And then comes that other period of it's still really attached to the female that it is living within as a parasite. Loving pregnant, totally a parasite,
 
Zack Jackson 56:50
your bones,
 
Rachael Jackson 56:51
Oh, my God. Again, loved it was not was not did not feel like
 
Zack Jackson 56:58
my calcium child,
 
Rachael Jackson 57:00
and my blood supply and my brain cells, please go on. Thanks for that. That it is not considered a nephesh it is not considered a soul a life until the moment that the entire head is outside of the body. At that point, when the entire head is outside of the body, then the life of the person delivering it and the life of this child, this infant are now equal. Up until that point, it is considered as a limb of the mother. So if you imagine a limb, and you're just like, this limb has become gangrenous, I must get rid of it. Okay, let's get rid of the limb. If your life is in danger, because this limb is going to cause you death, then you get rid of it. It is considered and so using that language that it is as a limb, I think really changes, who owns it? Who makes the decision? And what can happen to it. I know this is all new for you, do you care to react?
 
Zack Jackson 58:25
And it sounds like it's being treated like a person who would trample on seedlings. And the question then is do you are you then guilty of destroying my tomatoes? Or just with the things that would one day bear tomatoes? Yeah, and that's a distinction I hadn't really considered. And coming from a place like that. Yeah, Exodus. That was, I came out of left field. Because we in the evangelical world, we would often quote from especially from Psalms from some of the more poetic places of you who formed my parts. my innermost being you knew me from in my mother's womb on all of these, this language of personal autonomy before birth and intentionality of creation. And all of those were used to, to give autonomy to the thing before it's born. So it's really interesting to hear that the people who wrote those books, interpret them differently than the people who inherited them. Which is so often the case so are doing Christians and Jews.
 
Rachael Jackson 59:44
So So holding that holding that idea of of imbuing all of these characteristics into something that is not yet born. Here's a piece from the mission of then that I'll share with you and this is trigger warning. It's a little bit graphic and used as hyperbole, okay? Because they didn't actually enforce capital punishment. But this is using that example to highlight and underscore what they're saying. So, in the case of a pregnant woman who is taken by the court to be executed, the court does not wait to execute her until after she gives birth. Rather, she is killed immediately. But with regard to a woman who is taken to be executed, while sitting in the throes of labor, on the on the birthing stool, the court shall wait to execute her. And then the following conversation is, well, isn't it obvious that the court executes a pregnant woman rather than waiting? After all, it's just a part of her body, the fetus is considered her property? If so, the courts should wait until she gives birth before executing her and not cause him to lose the fetus. And this is no actually this is not taken into account at all. So who gets so a woman who is pregnant, who is meant to be murdered by the state right? capital punishment? Yes. Up until the point where she is in active labor, on the birth. And so for those of you that are aren't so familiar with midwifery, on the birthing stool means the woman is pushing. She's not just in labor, like she is pushing, and that baby's head is like coming out. Only until that point, they can execute her up until them
 
Zack Jackson 1:01:40
worth noting, too, that the mission is not a modern
 
Rachael Jackson 1:01:44
document. Thank you. Yes, the mission was written down approximately 1900 years ago. Yeah. So contemporary with other Christian with Christian sources that might be interpreting this in a completely different way. So that's sort of the Jewish way of understanding this.
 
Zack Jackson 1:02:03
Okay. Interesting, though, that it's considered a part of the mother's body and not the father's property, as I would imagine a patriarchal society would want to do that, like, don't execute her until she's given birth, because that's that child is my property is how I would imagine them back then, to be thinking, but
 
Rachael Jackson 1:02:19
no, and that was that was the question that came out in the gamar, which was written about 200 years later, like, wait a minute, it's his property, he should get a say, right, he doesn't. And it's like, actually, it's not his property on till it comes out.
 
Zack Jackson 1:02:33
Wow. So 2000 years ago, there were people saying that a woman's body is it's her body, her choice? Yeah. And
 
Rachael Jackson 1:02:42
it's her body. And who gets to choose? She does? Hmm. Yeah.
 
Zack Jackson 1:02:51
Well, the early Roman Christians got real weird about sex and REL controlling about their patriarchy. And that really went a long way into informing what Christianity in Europe would develop as for the next couple 1000 years, and we are still recovering a lot from from that. And so it's actually kind of refreshing to hear that contemporaries of early Christians, and probably some early Christians as well. We're Reading these verses and thinking about life in these ways.
 
Rachael Jackson 1:03:23
Yeah. So when we're thinking about life in these ways, I think it's really important for us to recognize that it's not so clear cut, that these are difficult choices, that there's no easy answers, there are no, frankly, actual answers that everyone can follow. It's right. It's not math. It's not two plus two equals four, it's that every situation is unique and of itself, and the people who are actually impacted should be the one to be making these decisions, not somebody else. And I'll just sort of use this platform to also say that lawyers and politicians have no place in the gynecological office at all, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. They don't. They don't ever have a place that I think the only people that even dare to have a place in there is the person whose body it is their medical practitioner, and their partner. Those are the people that get a say, and no one else
 
Zack Jackson 1:04:37
in that order,
 
Rachael Jackson 1:04:38
in that order, in that order, until we come up with some other way of reproducing in that order. Yeah. So go support Planned Parenthood. Go yell at your politicians who are not choosing this who are not recognizing that and there's a few things that I'll just say that I'm going to put in the show notes. Because for those of you that have not had the experience of having yourself or a loved one or a person in your circle of concern, go through an abortion to have to make that choice. It's really easy to assign blame. And it's really easy to say what you would have done, but you've never been in those shoes. And anyone considering that choice is not taking it lightly. It's and so I just want to dispel that it's, it's never used as a birth control option. It's never used as a ploy of oops, I just forgot, well, let me just go down the street and have an abortion, right? There's no, there's no casual this to anyone that's had to make this decision. All the more. So the later in a pregnancy, this decision has to be made, the more you've heard felted kick or heard its heartbeat, or watched your own body change to accommodate this. That is not a choice that anyone wants to make. So I will be including in the show notes, some stories of people who've had to make those choices, and how they've, how they've dealt with it. Oh, I know that kind of took a serious turn. This isn't quite where we're going.
 
Zack Jackson 1:06:25
But I think one excellent place to land.
 
Rachael Jackson 1:06:28
And when we're talking about ethics, I think that that's part of our conversation is who gets to make these decisions. When we're when we're speaking ethics. And when we look at medical ethics, part of the part of the list is do no harm. Personal autonomy and resources. Right fair justice and fairness and those ways. So yeah,
 
Zack Jackson 1:07:01
thank you for leading us in this discussion that I'm I'm so glad it was you. And that the fact that there were so few of us here today meant that you had the space to explore that a little bit further.
 
Rachael Jackson 1:07:15
No thank you for doing that. And listeners please please, please tell us your your your questions. Give us your questions. Give us your your experiences that you're feeling comfortable enough to share, give us your opinions, right tell us engage us with this conversation because it's it's even more meaningful, the more we hear from you